Rule Change -- To prevent Lay and Pray

JudojitzJudojitz Posts: 21Free
I propose a rule change to prevent lay and pray. No one knows quite how advantageous it is the maintain top position for a majority of the fight. In most cases, it seems very advantageous. However, this type of style, can make for some boring fights to watch, and some fighters entering into a complacent fight style. This complacent fight style I think is not in favor of the spirit of the sport. I think the problem lays in the term "effective grappling". I think that "positioning" throughout the round should equate to some number of significant strikes, say 5. For example, if you had one take down or 7, which led you to have better positioning in general throughout the round, it would be as if you had landed 5 significant strikes. No more stealing the round with one takedown, or calculated victories by simple overpowering and control that leaves both fighters able to continue at the end of the match and leaves all fans wondering what could/should be.
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  • KOOKORKKOOKORK Posts: 778Free
    Oh my god, you saved UFC . ON behalf of Dana and Fertita brothers I thank you!!!

    But: The judges do not have a strike count handy and no two strikes are the same. How they add say 5 to something they do not know about ?

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  • the_enigmathe_enigma Posts: 19,055Premium
    edited March 2013
    The judges struggle to count rounds they scored to find the totals, let alone the punches thrown and then multiplications of takedowns etc... refs should have more power to stand fights up etc... but there are just as many boring standup fights as ground fights, people just notice the boring ground fights more because usually there's one guy still trying to fight he just can't which pisses people off.

    After all, this isn't a grappling match, it's a fight. Do we really need lengthy battles for position? Attempts to finish the fight should be considered working. Not attempts to control (which is also used to avoid)

    The problem with this though is that moving away is sometimes hated on just as much as controlling someone on the ground, but often the person moving away is landing the more effective strikes. Where do we draw the line between being effective and trying to avoid the fight?
    Post edited by the_enigma on
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  • the_enigmathe_enigma Posts: 19,055Premium

    i disagree with enigma, referees have power enough to stand-up the fight, and the president himself encourage this.

    the real problem, in my opinion, is that "dominant positions" are scored.

    if you're in a dominant position, that's good because it's easier to submit, your opponent will gas, it's easier to hit...

    my point: if you're in a dominant position, be dominant, ffs! just being on top shouldn't mean ****

    That's my point, they don't stand people up enough. They clearly have some kind of criteria they look for before standing up fighters. This criteria should be adjusted.
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  • wanderleisilva101wanderleisilva101 Posts: 9,364Free
    ^ I agree with both of you stand ups take way to long and people in the dominant position aren't always dominant look when they're in Brazil we get real action on the ground or it gets stood up. JDUK has it right the Asian system works better and is much more exciting.
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  • fobarfobar Posts: 27,337Free
    jduk said:

    Thing is, the unified rules and scoring system were made by Americans, for Americans, to benefit American wrestlers.

    The Asian style of scoring MMA is much better IMO

    this^
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  • juice64011juice64011 Posts: 5,949Free
    edited March 2013
    I think that the judges just need to step in quicker. If you tell someone to work and they continue to lay in the guard and throw a couple of weak punches then they should be stood up. If they start posturing up and throwing hard or successfully move to side control then they can let it keep going as long as they stay active. The problem is that refs are telling them to work and then the guy throws a few and goes back to controlling the opponent and the ref is letting it slide.
    Post edited by juice64011 on
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  • PabloskyPablosky Posts: 675Free
    jduk got it
    thanks god im less stupid now!

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  • munkiemunkie Posts: 2,538Free
    That is really stupid. You can't ask each judge to do the job of the ringside stat keeper. It really is very, very stupid. Anyways, the only plausible way to combat Lay n Pray is to be a killer from your back.
  • BruteDionBruteDion Posts: 10,489Free
    munkie said:

    That is really stupid. You can't ask each judge to do the job of the ringside stat keeper. It really is very, very stupid. Anyways, the only plausible way to combat Lay n Pray is to be a killer from your back.

    Which honestly no one is really training to be...there are only a few high level bJJ guys still in the game or just guys dangerous of thier backs

    Silva is the perfect example...he's a striker but of you put him on his back he's still a threat...ever wrestlers or bjj guy who has put him on his back he has finished with a sub

    When was the last high level bjj guy off his back been LnP?...there has been a few..but I'm having a hard time thinking of any...its amazing how people don't see this

    All they look at is some striker who you assuming has a legit guard get LnP and now you wanna write of BJJ as a whole...case and point when Clay Guida LnPed Pettis...after that fight everyone was saying how BJJ was a joke or is died...lol "really Pettis is the Harold of BJJ now" is what I though
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  • RodrigoRuaRodrigoRua Posts: 2,422Free
    Nahh .. too much theory for some very simple:

    After the TD, dude should have let say 2 min to do smth significant like a nasty GnP, sub attempt, etc (not necessarily finish if he cant) OTHERWISE bring both guys UP.

    Now, a fighter should be allowed to do how many TD he wants, do you know why ? Because TDD is part of MMA so everybody should work on that !!!
  • BeanslegendBeanslegend Posts: 802Free
    Guys like Hendricks are the epitomy of doing nothing while wrestling. While guys like GSP advance position and strike as much as possible. So your talking about two different worlds of top positions, and most good fighters can get up from their back, it's called scrambling.
  • ostrobeshowostrobeshow Posts: 50Ultimate
    I assume you are suggesting this new "rule" because you saw the predictable ufc 158 main event... Well, I was there, and I don't think GSP "laid and prayed" whatsoever... He was constantly trying to gain a more dominant position, where he would be able to more effectively land strikes without being swept... Diaz has a good bottom game, but if you watch, GSP was never just laying there, he was trying to move, but with a good guy on bottom its difficult. You have to appreciate what is actually happening, from both points of view... As good as Nick Diaz is on the ground, you have to give credit that he was able to neutralize the striking and positions of GSP. Also, you have to recognize how well GSP did at constantly switching from side to side, looking for an opening... Thats what you get when you put a strong wrestler against a good jiu jitsu guy... but if you know what you are looking at, you should be able to appreciate what is going on, even though it is not a highlight reel knockout, you should still appreciate the skill involved in what they do... If you want to see just a stand up bout, watch boxing or kickboxing...
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  • i_run_thisi_run_this Posts: 19,295Free
    fighters need to learn how to fight off there back....
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  • MaximumBobMaximumBob Posts: 1,288Free
    edited March 2013

    I assume you are suggesting this new "rule" because you saw the predictable ufc 158 main event... Well, I was there, and I don't think GSP "laid and prayed" whatsoever... He was constantly trying to gain a more dominant position, where he would be able to more effectively land strikes without being swept... Diaz has a good bottom game, but if you watch, GSP was never just laying there, he was trying to move, but with a good guy on bottom its difficult. You have to appreciate what is actually happening, from both points of view... As good as Nick Diaz is on the ground, you have to give credit that he was able to neutralize the striking and positions of GSP. Also, you have to recognize how well GSP did at constantly switching from side to side, looking for an opening... Thats what you get when you put a strong wrestler against a good jiu jitsu guy... but if you know what you are looking at, you should be able to appreciate what is going on, even though it is not a highlight reel knockout, you should still appreciate the skill involved in what they do... If you want to see just a stand up bout, watch boxing or kickboxing...


    Once it became obvious to the referee that their skill sets were cancelling each other out on the ground, the ref should have jumped in much quicker, each time a TD was acheived.
    GSP constantly trying to gain a more dominant position, means nothing without a follow up attack.You say GSP was constantly switching from side to side looking for an opening, but it became obvious early on that he wasn't going to find one. It was also fairly obvious that he was prepared to do very little, even had he found one.
    From that point on in the fight, the ref should've been standing them up much quicker, in the hopes of turning a competition into an actual fight.

    Allowing GSP to skip from side to side, purely to stay in control, while causing zero damage, and with no discernable submission attempts, is not what i want from a referee.
    I would prefer to see referee's willing to intervine, in an effort to keep the action rolling, and to enable an actual fight to take place.

    As to your last point, it would also be fair to say that if all i wished to see were two men rolling around on the floor i could just go and watch a wrestling match
    Post edited by MaximumBob on
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  • JudojitzJudojitz Posts: 21Free

    I assume you are suggesting this new "rule" because you saw the predictable ufc 158 main event... Well, I was there, and I don't think GSP "laid and prayed" whatsoever... He was constantly trying to gain a more dominant position, where he would be able to more effectively land strikes without being swept... Diaz has a good bottom game, but if you watch, GSP was never just laying there, he was trying to move, but with a good guy on bottom its difficult. You have to appreciate what is actually happening, from both points of view... As good as Nick Diaz is on the ground, you have to give credit that he was able to neutralize the striking and positions of GSP. Also, you have to recognize how well GSP did at constantly switching from side to side, looking for an opening... Thats what you get when you put a strong wrestler against a good jiu jitsu guy... but if you know what you are looking at, you should be able to appreciate what is going on, even though it is not a highlight reel knockout, you should still appreciate the skill involved in what they do... If you want to see just a stand up bout, watch boxing or kickboxing...

    To the contrary, I'm a huge GSP fan, and I think he did what it took to win the fight. He fights strategically and intelligently. I want to see the sport evolve to motivate competitors in such a way that creates more action.

    To all, valid points about take down defense and guys who are great off their backs. These are traits and positions that many fighters don't value enough in my position.

    Perhaps what is necessary is some defined criteria for which to stand a fight up.

    To Kookork: I think that the judges must have some mental inventory of what transpired during the round. I propose they add to that inventory accordingly, although they may not be working with complete numbers.
  • I pretty much agree with how fights are scored currently. I don't even like that the refs can stand guys up. Learn how to get up.
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  • KeemKeem Posts: 6,862Free
    edited March 2013

    fighters need to learn how to fight off there back....

    I believe control on the ground should be given to the guy with a highter output. Outstriking your opponent on the ground and threating with subs, Hi-guard, mission control, sweeps and etc. should be twice as significant as holding guard. The person in guard should be working too; at least to pass or strike.

    Sweeping someone with a submission should be like 2x TD's imho (Sub attempt + reversal + dominate position [if you land in to side and higher])
    Post edited by Keem on
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  • EpilogueEpilogue Posts: 124Free
    rules to prevent lay and pray: see Pride FC

    make ground elbows illegal and ground kicks legal... add yellowcards... boom! fixed...
  • CaptainSupermanCaptainSuperman Posts: 10,101Free
    I think they should delay each and every card, and air it the next day with the lay and pray fights cut out. Save all those LnP fights for an X-rated PPV that pervs and GSP fans alike will only purchase. Then, and only then, will GSP break the 1M PPV buy mark again.
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