Should a TDD be scored like a TD ?

RodrigoRuaRodrigoRua Posts: 2,422Free
Kinda going on the same path of another discussion on this forum regarding "New rules to prevent LnP .."

Should a TDD be scored the same (or similar) as a TD ? Think about it this: a guy who loves to TD and LnP would be more cautious to keep on this game plan BECAUSE if his opponent makes a nice TDD he (the TD guy) loses points !!!

On that case, Diaz would had scored "some more" points on the fight with GSP since he did defended some TDs after round 3.

NOW I GO EVEN FURTHER ... PLEASE GIVE YOUR OPINION:

Let say fighter A got taken down by fighter B. Fighter B GnP for a couple seconds but fighter A stands up and put this fight on the feet again .. So should that "stand up skill" give points to fighter A ? (remember he got taken down but stood up the fight)

Do you guys realize how many fights would be scored differently ?

Do you guys think that could put some sort of "changes" on the LnP game ?

Please give your thoughts

Have a great evening !

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  • MGunMGun GOATPosts: 3,105Free
    Yeah I have mentioned something similar once. I think if the guy lands some successful GnP or goes for submissions, he should get the TD points and more. Otherwise it should count for nothing because it's basically just avoiding and stalling the fight.
    And yeah TDD should definitely be scored a lot higher to prevent wrestlers from avoiding/stalling with useless TD attempts.
  • RodrigoRuaRodrigoRua Posts: 2,422Free
    MilesGun said:

    Yeah I have mentioned something similar once. I think if the guy lands some successful GnP or goes for submissions, he should get the TD points and more. Otherwise it should count for nothing because it's basically just avoiding and stalling the fight.
    And yeah TDD should definitely be scored a lot higher to prevent wrestlers from avoiding/stalling with useless TD attempts.

    No big deal really but I just think smth like that could change a lot of outcomes, scoring, fight quality, etc.

    LMAO sorry, but I couldnt stop laughing with GSP jumping from one side to other on Diaz to "gain control and position"
  • FuriousmatFuriousmat Posts: 4,044Free

    Kinda going on the same path of another discussion on this forum regarding "New rules to prevent LnP .."

    Should a TDD be scored the same (or similar) as a TD ? Think about it this: a guy who loves to TD and LnP would be more cautious to keep on this game plan BECAUSE if his opponent makes a nice TDD he (the TD guy) loses points !!!

    On that case, Diaz would had scored "some more" points on the fight with GSP since he did defended some TDs after round 3.

    NOW I GO EVEN FURTHER ... PLEASE GIVE YOUR OPINION:

    Let say fighter A got taken down by fighter B. Fighter B GnP for a couple seconds but fighter A stands up and put this fight on the feet again .. So should that "stand up skill" give points to fighter A ? (remember he got taken down but stood up the fight)

    Do you guys realize how many fights would be scored differently ?

    Do you guys think that could put some sort of "changes" on the LnP game ?

    Please give your thoughts

    Have a great evening !

    Well. no.

    what then. defending a submission should grant points? blocking a punch should grant points? if you want points go ahead and work for them. Points are in action. not in preventing actions. When you stuff a takedown you already get some sort of points, in the sense that you keep the opponent from gaining points he would earn if he succeeded in taking you down. That's all you get and all you should get.
  • carnages41carnages41 Posts: 36,245Free
    They should just remove points from a scored takedown

    you should only get points via damage.....whether it be GnP or Striking.....everything else is irrelevant garbage
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  • FuriousmatFuriousmat Posts: 4,044Free

    just like dominant positions, takedowns should be used to actually be dominant, do damage, try to submit, ground and pound.

    takedowns and dominant positions by themselves should mean nothing

    this.
  • KeemKeem Posts: 6,862Free
    I believe so, or at least like 0.75% of an actually TD.
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  • MaximumBobMaximumBob Posts: 1,288Free

    The only good thing about a GSP fight is the fact that it raises these questions and eventually, at some point, the UFC and the governing bodies who set the judging criteria, will have to take note and address these issue's.

    There are a lot of good and reasonable suggestions being thrown out. Lets hope the powers that be are taking note.
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  • OmoplataypusOmoplataypus BostonPosts: 4,556Free
    I think scoring successful takedown defenses on the same level as successful takedowns, since they are both forms of effective wrestling, is a great idea and would change the fight game for the better.
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  • JunglebirdJunglebird Posts: 9,741Free
    Fighters need to start losing when they get takedowns and do nothing with them but get hit by the guy on the bottom.
    Fighters need to realise that they can't win fights by being on top alone.


    But first scoring needs to change
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  • RodrigoRuaRodrigoRua Posts: 2,422Free

    Kinda going on the same path of another discussion on this forum regarding "New rules to prevent LnP .."

    Should a TDD be scored the same (or similar) as a TD ? Think about it this: a guy who loves to TD and LnP would be more cautious to keep on this game plan BECAUSE if his opponent makes a nice TDD he (the TD guy) loses points !!!

    On that case, Diaz would had scored "some more" points on the fight with GSP since he did defended some TDs after round 3.

    NOW I GO EVEN FURTHER ... PLEASE GIVE YOUR OPINION:

    Let say fighter A got taken down by fighter B. Fighter B GnP for a couple seconds but fighter A stands up and put this fight on the feet again .. So should that "stand up skill" give points to fighter A ? (remember he got taken down but stood up the fight)

    Do you guys realize how many fights would be scored differently ?

    Do you guys think that could put some sort of "changes" on the LnP game ?

    Please give your thoughts

    Have a great evening !

    Well. no.

    what then. defending a submission should grant points? blocking a punch should grant points? if you want points go ahead and work for them. Points are in action. not in preventing actions. When you stuff a takedown you already get some sort of points, in the sense that you keep the opponent from gaining points he would earn if he succeeded in taking you down. That's all you get and all you should get.
    No man, lets stick with the subject TDD VS TD only ... lets talk about things that really dont create any action, etc.

    I gotta nothing against a grappling situation (because its mma) BUT the problem is when that "grappling situation" isnt going anywhere, right ?

    Now, a punch, kicks, etc are definetely creating something !!!

    You also mentioned "If you want points go ahead and work for them" ... I totally agree with you on that ... thats why a guy shouldnt be allowed to LnP ... wrestle without results .... where is the "working" for points then ?
  • jdukjduk Posts: 8,284Free
    Wasn't this a deciding factor in Machida/Shogun 1?
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  • FuriousmatFuriousmat Posts: 4,044Free

    Kinda going on the same path of another discussion on this forum regarding "New rules to prevent LnP .."

    Should a TDD be scored the same (or similar) as a TD ? Think about it this: a guy who loves to TD and LnP would be more cautious to keep on this game plan BECAUSE if his opponent makes a nice TDD he (the TD guy) loses points !!!

    On that case, Diaz would had scored "some more" points on the fight with GSP since he did defended some TDs after round 3.

    NOW I GO EVEN FURTHER ... PLEASE GIVE YOUR OPINION:

    Let say fighter A got taken down by fighter B. Fighter B GnP for a couple seconds but fighter A stands up and put this fight on the feet again .. So should that "stand up skill" give points to fighter A ? (remember he got taken down but stood up the fight)

    Do you guys realize how many fights would be scored differently ?

    Do you guys think that could put some sort of "changes" on the LnP game ?

    Please give your thoughts

    Have a great evening !

    Well. no.

    what then. defending a submission should grant points? blocking a punch should grant points? if you want points go ahead and work for them. Points are in action. not in preventing actions. When you stuff a takedown you already get some sort of points, in the sense that you keep the opponent from gaining points he would earn if he succeeded in taking you down. That's all you get and all you should get.
    No man, lets stick with the subject TDD VS TD only ... lets talk about things that really dont create any action, etc.

    I gotta nothing against a grappling situation (because its mma) BUT the problem is when that "grappling situation" isnt going anywhere, right ?

    Now, a punch, kicks, etc are definetely creating something !!!

    You also mentioned "If you want points go ahead and work for them" ... I totally agree with you on that ... thats why a guy shouldnt be allowed to LnP ... wrestle without results .... where is the "working" for points then ?
    well I'm supportive of the idea that achieving positions alone should not grant points.

    But I disagree with giving points to someone for keeping something from happening.

    And again, a line will have to be traced between a TD and a slam.. that isn't that obvious sometimes.. To me the TD is an active and dynamic action. The TD isn't a problem in itself. It might be scored too high but it should be scored. And defending it shouldn't. No more than defending a submission. The score goes to the guy who makes the action happen, period.

    I also think that the action should be scored regardless of the position. As mentionned previously, being on top should only be a way to achieve domination... it can be used for that.. and through that domination, the fighter should be brought to score more by landing more significant strikes or attempting submissions. But if the guy on the bottom is more active, tries more subs, or lands more significant strikes, that's all that should be scored.

    I think scoring in favor of the guy that's on top regardless of the damage being done is stupid...

    as for scoring a TDD, no.
  • Yesterdays_HeroYesterdays_Hero Posts: 23,582Free
    Khabib vs Tibau made me think TDD needed to be scored. Khabib had so many failed takedowns (15+) and still won when he did nothing that was significant. If you're failing that many takedowns it means the other guy has won the takedown battle 15+ times. He should get points for that. I could see it making fights boring though, if defence is scored equally a lot of people would change to a defensive gameplan.
  • OmoplataypusOmoplataypus BostonPosts: 4,556Free
    Don't a lot of fighters already employ a defensive gameplan (at least when it comes to wrestling)??

    Generally the defensive wrestlers have a striking first style anyway.

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  • OmoplataypusOmoplataypus BostonPosts: 4,556Free
    Bellator is insane right now.

    Fight called a no contest because of a nut shot that basically TKOd the guy and then a one punch KO right after.
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  • kyo_sakyo_sa Posts: 1,065Free
    not stuffing a TD but i think you should get points for sweeping or getting a reversal....

    even you get a situation where a guy might be on top all fight but the guy on bottom is throwing up subs the whole time and all the guy on top is doing is trying to get out of it the whole time, id like to see that rewarded because in that case its the guy on the bottom attacking

    and dummy go watch the gracie breakdown of 158 and you will understand why gsp was going side to side. diaz was trying to set up specific things from the bottom. gsp has very high level bjj he just uses it to maintain position, and unless your a 16 yr old **** like many on here you know he threw a lot of strikes from there as he does in every fight
  • zaksamezaksame Posts: 4,340Free
    NO for the simple fact,a simple sprawl takes way less energy ,effort that trying to power a guy down.
    You watch any guy who wrestles and he gets real tired,it takes a ton of energy.Then after you take a guy down ,you have to remain active or it gets stood up.
    Kind of sad rules when the guy on the bottom can literally go to sleep,he can rest and just wait for a standup,while the guy on top is the one who has to keep using up energy.
    Now if the guy on the bottom gets a reversal,then i might score more so than the TD,it all depends what the guy did on top while he was there.If the guy on top did absolutely nothing,i give the reversal the full point and take down maybe a 1/2 point.

    Honestly the whole scoring system is so clouded with doubt and controversy,the system needs a huge change so scoring is more concrete and not just a judges opinion.
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  • KOTMFKOTMF Posts: 348Free

    Kinda going on the same path of another discussion on this forum regarding "New rules to prevent LnP .."

    Should a TDD be scored the same (or similar) as a TD ? Think about it this: a guy who loves to TD and LnP would be more cautious to keep on this game plan BECAUSE if his opponent makes a nice TDD he (the TD guy) loses points !!!

    On that case, Diaz would had scored "some more" points on the fight with GSP since he did defended some TDs after round 3.

    NOW I GO EVEN FURTHER ... PLEASE GIVE YOUR OPINION:

    Let say fighter A got taken down by fighter B. Fighter B GnP for a couple seconds but fighter A stands up and put this fight on the feet again .. So should that "stand up skill" give points to fighter A ? (remember he got taken down but stood up the fight)

    Do you guys realize how many fights would be scored differently ?

    Do you guys think that could put some sort of "changes" on the LnP game ?

    Please give your thoughts

    Have a great evening !

    Well. no.

    what then. defending a submission should grant points? blocking a punch should grant points? if you want points go ahead and work for them. Points are in action. not in preventing actions. When you stuff a takedown you already get some sort of points, in the sense that you keep the opponent from gaining points he would earn if he succeeded in taking you down. That's all you get and all you should get.
    I agree with this. I think if you count too many points for defensive actions, it may turn people into even more defensive fighters and you will get a lot less action. Right now, people know they have to do some kind of offensive move to score points so it keeps the pace moving. If you take away that incentive, you may have guys who just look to counter the whole time, I think it'll get boring. I don't like lay and pray tactics, but that's where refs have to stand the guys up a lot quicker. If the top position fighter decides to keep active and battle for position and throws strikes and tries to get submissions, then that's fine, even if he's not landing all of them, but if he's just laying on the guys back and throwing small jabs to the side of the face or just trying to hold on without threatening, stand them up. If he repeatedly does this throughout the fight, then the each time, stand the guy up faster. This will help the most and scoring won't have to be dramatically altered.
  • i_run_thisi_run_this Posts: 19,291Free
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  • FuriousmatFuriousmat Posts: 4,044Free
    KOTMF said:

    Kinda going on the same path of another discussion on this forum regarding "New rules to prevent LnP .."

    Should a TDD be scored the same (or similar) as a TD ? Think about it this: a guy who loves to TD and LnP would be more cautious to keep on this game plan BECAUSE if his opponent makes a nice TDD he (the TD guy) loses points !!!

    On that case, Diaz would had scored "some more" points on the fight with GSP since he did defended some TDs after round 3.

    NOW I GO EVEN FURTHER ... PLEASE GIVE YOUR OPINION:

    Let say fighter A got taken down by fighter B. Fighter B GnP for a couple seconds but fighter A stands up and put this fight on the feet again .. So should that "stand up skill" give points to fighter A ? (remember he got taken down but stood up the fight)

    Do you guys realize how many fights would be scored differently ?

    Do you guys think that could put some sort of "changes" on the LnP game ?

    Please give your thoughts

    Have a great evening !

    Well. no.

    what then. defending a submission should grant points? blocking a punch should grant points? if you want points go ahead and work for them. Points are in action. not in preventing actions. When you stuff a takedown you already get some sort of points, in the sense that you keep the opponent from gaining points he would earn if he succeeded in taking you down. That's all you get and all you should get.
    I agree with this. I think if you count too many points for defensive actions, it may turn people into even more defensive fighters and you will get a lot less action. Right now, people know they have to do some kind of offensive move to score points so it keeps the pace moving. If you take away that incentive, you may have guys who just look to counter the whole time, I think it'll get boring. I don't like lay and pray tactics, but that's where refs have to stand the guys up a lot quicker. If the top position fighter decides to keep active and battle for position and throws strikes and tries to get submissions, then that's fine, even if he's not landing all of them, but if he's just laying on the guys back and throwing small jabs to the side of the face or just trying to hold on without threatening, stand them up. If he repeatedly does this throughout the fight, then the each time, stand the guy up faster. This will help the most and scoring won't have to be dramatically altered.
    This.
    I think granting points for any sort of defensive move is likely to make fighters even more tentative to try stuff.

    Cuz lets be honnest. Very often in MMA, what happens is both guys act almost by turns.. In striking, its very obvious. One guy tries a 1-2. other guy falls back.. Then he comes back with a couple strikes of his own... they wait.. and on and on... One guy stuffs the takedown, they separate and resume in the middle of the octagon.. its like the always resume the action and there's no fluidity.. It's like instead of working during the action, they just figure that they will wait for the perfect setup and then go in.

    Now imagine for a moment that if you fail what you're attempting, the other guy will get points.... Man.. things will start sucking real bad..

    On the other hand, as mentionned earlier.. I think it'd be good not to give points to the guy on top only because he's on top.. when the fight hits the ground it should be judged from there considering that both guys are equal, as if they were standing. Of course if one guy turtles up and the other guy is on his back well.. this is a dominant position and just as in other fight sports the guy attacking will get more points, cuz he's in a position to attempt stuff while the other guy is only in a position to defend...
  • StompGrindStompGrind Posts: 21,197Free
    edited March 2013
    Should they also count evading, parrying, blocking as effective striking. =)) Even though it is IF you use it to launch a counter offensive.

    It's pretty straight forward, to score and win rounds you need to be offensive.
    Post edited by StompGrind on
  • OmoplataypusOmoplataypus BostonPosts: 4,556Free
    The judging criteria mentions effective grappling. Is having stout TDD not an example of effective grappling, even if its basically reverse wrestling?

    Im not saying score a point for every single little TDD but if, in a given round, the striking is even and a guy stuffs 10 TDs and gets taken down once briefly, then with the way it seems now, the judges will automatically give the round to the guy with the single TD, no matter how many times he just got shut down.

    Fighters need to be credited for defensive wrestling. Its unfair to ONLY award points for offensive wrestling.
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  • StompGrindStompGrind Posts: 21,197Free

    The judging criteria mentions effective grappling. Is having stout TDD not an example of effective grappling, even if its basically reverse wrestling?

    Im not saying score a point for every single little TDD but if, in a given round, the striking is even and a guy stuffs 10 TDs and gets taken down once briefly, then with the way it seems now, the judges will automatically give the round to the guy with the single TD, no matter how many times he just got shut down.

    Fighters need to be credited for defensive wrestling. Its unfair to ONLY award points for offensive wrestling.

    I can agree with that just saying pure defense shouldn't be rewarded over offense. It's basically a stalemate until someone's attack or counter attack is a success.
  • munkiemunkie Posts: 2,538Free
    Simple fact, you can't have defense scored equal to offense. If it were, then a guy could win a fight without throwing a single punch or attempting anything offensive. You don't like Lay n Pray? Wait till you see 2 fighters that just go out there to circle and sprawl for 15 minutes.
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