Best Ground Game

JudojitzJudojitz Posts: 21Free
I consider a good ground game to be composed of several components. I'm interested to hear who our community is most impressed with according to the criteria below. I'd love to hear how you rank your fighter from 1-10 in each category.

The entry with the most community support and best reflection will be deemed the winner two days from now. The criteria and a brief description are listed below:

1.) Takedown ability: this is a component because it is necessary to take an opponent down to begin your work. Of course, you could be taken down by an opponent, but I believe it is more effective and advantageous to take the fight to the ground on your schedule. You likely obtain better position.

2.) Takedown defense: Important because being taken down begins your groundwork in a disadvantageous position.

3.) Control: Ability to control the fight and your opponent on the ground, effectively minimizing how threatening your opponent is.

4.) Escape: Ability to excuse yourself from unpleasant situations.

5.) Submission Ability: The degree of how threatening a fighter is in terms of submissions to his or her opponent.

6.) Advancement: Ability to gain a more advantageous position from the one you began in.

7.) Ground Striking : Ability to strike from the ground.


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Comments

  • carnages41carnages41 Posts: 36,253Free
    Georges

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  • Frontline_RioterFrontline_Rioter Posts: 2,531Free
    Maia and Jacare are the premiere submission fighters with good takedown ability and control.
  • jdukjduk Posts: 8,284Free
    Maia at 170 scores highly here, apart from the striking bit, which is average
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  • KeemKeem Posts: 6,862Free
    Id say GSP overall. He hasn't submitted anyone from back yet, but thats because he doesn't stay there long enough when does end up there
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


    - C.Condit - B.Henderson - J.Jones - C.Oliveira


    J.Benavidez - H.Hioki - T.Griffin - M.Torres - J. Hathaway - J. Howard - B.Tavares - M.Johnson - M.Brimage - D.Kim - T."Lion" Inoue - LC. Davis - M. Semezier - Y.Alcantara - Wineland - H.Lim


    Megumi Fuji

    I am an idiot for thinking GSP could finish the P4P GOAT Nick Diaz within 5 rounds

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  • CaptainSupermanCaptainSuperman Posts: 10,101Free
    Good ground game doesn't NEED to be composed of all of that. As much as I dislike the guy, ask any of Jon Jones' opponents how they feel about his ground game. He doesn't need submissions, he doesn't need to pass the guard, and he doesn't need TDD to elbow you in the face from guard.
  • KeemKeem Posts: 6,862Free

    Good ground game doesn't NEED to be composed of all of that. As much as I dislike the guy, ask any of Jon Jones' opponents how they feel about his ground game. He doesn't need submissions, he doesn't need to pass the guard, and he doesn't need TDD to elbow you in the face from guard.

    Uuughp.. Gotta renig. I do think Jones know that he came to mind. I'm still sold off the Flying Triangle he put on Rampage at the end of the 3rd I believe. Completely forgot about Bones
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


    - C.Condit - B.Henderson - J.Jones - C.Oliveira


    J.Benavidez - H.Hioki - T.Griffin - M.Torres - J. Hathaway - J. Howard - B.Tavares - M.Johnson - M.Brimage - D.Kim - T."Lion" Inoue - LC. Davis - M. Semezier - Y.Alcantara - Wineland - H.Lim


    Megumi Fuji

    I am an idiot for thinking GSP could finish the P4P GOAT Nick Diaz within 5 rounds

    Greg - "It's, about.. WAR! You understand me?! You bounce, you move and you punish this kid. This is 5 minutes of war, now you go and give it to me!"
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  • carnages41carnages41 Posts: 36,253Free
    Keem said:

    Good ground game doesn't NEED to be composed of all of that. As much as I dislike the guy, ask any of Jon Jones' opponents how they feel about his ground game. He doesn't need submissions, he doesn't need to pass the guard, and he doesn't need TDD to elbow you in the face from guard.

    Uuughp.. Gotta renig. I do think Jones know that he came to mind. I'm still sold off the Flying Triangle he put on Rampage at the end of the 3rd I believe. Completely forgot about Bones
    Yeah because he definately would of got that......he tried the same thing to Rashad and almost got finished
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  • IdentityIdentity Posts: 6,908Free
    I'd give Condit a 9 his takedowns aren't great but he has good subs and elbows from the top plus pretty beast from the bottom.
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  • MangasmMangasm Posts: 6,043Free

    Keem said:

    Good ground game doesn't NEED to be composed of all of that. As much as I dislike the guy, ask any of Jon Jones' opponents how they feel about his ground game. He doesn't need submissions, he doesn't need to pass the guard, and he doesn't need TDD to elbow you in the face from guard.

    Uuughp.. Gotta renig. I do think Jones know that he came to mind. I'm still sold off the Flying Triangle he put on Rampage at the end of the 3rd I believe. Completely forgot about Bones
    Yeah because he definately would of got that......he tried the same thing to Rashad and almost got finished
    lol wut
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  • BruteDionBruteDion Posts: 10,489Free
    Judojitz said:

    I consider a good ground game to be composed of several components. I'm interested to hear who our community is most impressed with according to the criteria below. I'd love to hear how you rank your fighter from 1-10 in each category.

    The entry with the most community support and best reflection will be deemed the winner two days from now. The criteria and a brief description are listed below:

    1.) Takedown ability: this is a component because it is necessary to take an opponent down to begin your work. Of course, you could be taken down by an opponent, but I believe it is more effective and advantageous to take the fight to the ground on your schedule. You likely obtain better position.

    2.) Takedown defense: Important because being taken down begins your groundwork in a disadvantageous position.

    3.) Control: Ability to control the fight and your opponent on the ground, effectively minimizing how threatening your opponent is.

    4.) Escape: Ability to excuse yourself from unpleasant situations.

    5.) Submission Ability: The degree of how threatening a fighter is in terms of submissions to his or her opponent.

    6.) Advancement: Ability to gain a more advantageous position from the one you began in.

    7.) Ground Striking : Ability to strike from the ground.


    One thing I think you forgot and really in most cases is the most important

    Is what my Teacher call "Grappler Senses"...what it is, is generally the know how of whats going on and what is the best action or lack there of to take..."using the best tool for the situation" is what it really is

    So often we see guys who are only good at one one thing or just don't know what SHOULD be done in any give situation

    For example guys like Palhares are really good sub guys but never set it up...they just go for it and sometimes it was not the best time to go for it

    Another example...we see a lot of guys go for a guillotine and end up on bottom without getting the sub and next thing you know that same guu just got GnPed into a TKO...this guy has bad grappling senses...he just goes for moves

    To me this is the most important thing to have along with Control...its something you only get after years of training and have seen countless situations countless times

    In other sports its like how old times if football said they could pass the ball to a wide receiver with his eyes closed cuz he knew the guy and the route he ran so well

    We practice this by not looking at the guy we are grappling...we just look at the mat of the roof...this helps us use out sense of feel and touch to paint the picture our eyes would have for us

    In the long run it has many benefits like went to go hard and when to chill...when to hit escape and when to just pull the guy down...when to go for that arm bar or when advance position to get a more higher sub rate move

    It's a very important skill...well if you can even call it a skill
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  • Frontline_RioterFrontline_Rioter Posts: 2,531Free

    BJ Penn if you consider all those factors.

    Yeah Penn is another with solid takedowns and submissions. You don't see him being as effective after the 1st round when he's giving up 20+ pounds though. Carrying the weight of his opponents at welterweight really tires him out. At lightweight he was taken down one time in the last round of the first Edgar fight after stuffing about 15. I can't think of any other lightweight even coming close to landing the takedown
  • i_run_thisi_run_this Posts: 19,295Free
    GSP picks position over submission and is well paced and rarely in trouble

    GSP easily
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  • jpc_ultimatejpc_ultimate Posts: 980Free
    GSP, Maia, Penn, Sonnen (except the sub d) once he get on top of you he us tough to move
  • WarWestWarWest Órale VatoPosts: 33,719Free
    Chael Sonnen

    Never been sub'd
    Has multiple sub wins
    Can takedown anyone
    Can keep them down until he chooses to let them up
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  • CaptainSupermanCaptainSuperman Posts: 10,101Free

    GSP picks position over submission and is well paced and rarely in trouble

    GSP easily

    That's top control. All he has is top control. The best ground game is efficient (GSP should only need 5 TD's per fight, 1 per round) and effective (he hasn't finished). Not to mention all the damage he takes, his face always looks a mess, and get's a boo boo after every fight it seems.

    Jon Jones? Nah. Not even close.

  • JudojitzJudojitz Posts: 21Free

    Good ground game doesn't NEED to be composed of all of that. As much as I dislike the guy, ask any of Jon Jones' opponents how they feel about his ground game. He doesn't need submissions, he doesn't need to pass the guard, and he doesn't need TDD to elbow you in the face from guard.

    I hear what you're saying Captain Superman, however, I think there are people that overall have good ground game because they score so highly in certain categories that it makes up for others where they are lacking. Anyone who has good ground work without high scores in some areas is generally phenomenal in others. However, I think Jon Jones does score well in almost all of them.
  • JudojitzJudojitz Posts: 21Free
    Keem said:

    Id say GSP overall. He hasn't submitted anyone from back yet, but thats because he doesn't stay there long enough when does end up there

    Yea, I would love to see him operate from some positions we rarely see him in. I have a hunch that he doesn't love being on his back much at all. I don't think he sucks there, but I don't think he likes to fight in areas where he is less than truly world class.
  • JudojitzJudojitz Posts: 21Free
    BruteDion,

    I think your comment is valid, however, I think the quality you are discussing evidences itself in the performance of the other categories. So, overall, it should be captured.

  • idrankyourbeeridrankyourbeer Sony: "We made VCRs too. Play in our world. Watch tv in theirs!"Posts: 21,121Free
    gsp

    easy answer. hes even so good on his back that you never even see him there
    Just givin out the D
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  • JudojitzJudojitz Posts: 21Free
    WarWest said:

    Chael Sonnen

    Never been sub'd
    Has multiple sub wins
    Can takedown anyone
    Can keep them down until he chooses to let them up

    Chael never subbed?

  • CaptainSupermanCaptainSuperman Posts: 10,101Free
    Judojitz said:

    Good ground game doesn't NEED to be composed of all of that. As much as I dislike the guy, ask any of Jon Jones' opponents how they feel about his ground game. He doesn't need submissions, he doesn't need to pass the guard, and he doesn't need TDD to elbow you in the face from guard.

    I hear what you're saying Captain Superman, however, I think there are people that overall have good ground game because they score so highly in certain categories that it makes up for others where they are lacking. Anyone who has good ground work without high scores in some areas is generally phenomenal in others. However, I think Jon Jones does score well in almost all of them.
    But that's like saying Anderson Silva isn't the best overall striker cause he's not "great" at all faucets of striking, but rather a few.
  • JudojitzJudojitz Posts: 21Free
    No, if you have a 10 in most categories and in one category you have a 3, you're still going to average higher than someone who has an 8 in all the categories.

    And really...the highest you could score is a 10 in one category, but some people are almost getting robbed in some facets even if you give them a 10... I kind of give some extra gold stars in my head for people that are truly world class in one facet.
  • CaptainSupermanCaptainSuperman Posts: 10,101Free
    edited March 2013
    All I'm gonna say is that a lot of these guys that are listed have drifted away from either relevance or from their ground game style, simply cause their style isn't effective, despite being, say, JJ black belts. Jones is effective and doesn't need a black belt from a Gracie or Nogueira.

    The fact that some of these guys have been outworked on the ground before shows just that. If you wanna call this thread "who is the most well rounded", fine. But to say these guys are the best when they aren't the most effective or efficient? I think this just fails cause you're trying to "grade" it out of categories. Like I said, JJ doesn't need world class takedowns, takedown defense, submission skills, or submission escapes to break your orbital bone from guard and win a fight. Where as someone like Jacare or Maia needs a combination of that to win and be effective.
    Post edited by CaptainSuperman on
  • WarWestWarWest Órale VatoPosts: 33,719Free
    Judojitz said:

    WarWest said:

    Chael Sonnen

    Never been sub'd
    Has multiple sub wins
    Can takedown anyone
    Can keep them down until he chooses to let them up

    Chael never subbed?

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  • Za1994Za1994 Posts: 3,165Free

    BJ Penn if you consider all those factors.

    BJ Penn is a noob off his back. Only his top game is legit.
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  • JudojitzJudojitz Posts: 21Free

    All I'm gonna say is that a lot of these guys that are listed have drifted away from either relevance or from their ground game style, simply cause their style isn't effective, despite being, say, JJ black belts. Jones is effective and doesn't need a black belt from a Gracie or Nogueira.

    The fact that some of these guys have been outworked on the ground before shows just that. If you wanna call this thread "who is the most well rounded", fine. But to say these guys are the best when they aren't the most effective or efficient? I think this just fails cause you're trying to "grade" it out of categories. Like I said, JJ doesn't need world class takedowns, takedown defense, submission skills, or submission escapes to break your orbital bone from guard and win a fight. Where as someone like Jacare or Maia needs a combination of that to win and be effective.

    A black belt or some other accolade isn't part of the criteria.

    Doesn't Jones have great takedowns, takedown defense, and pretty good subs? And being able to effectively strike from the ground garners credit under my system.

  • Frontline_RioterFrontline_Rioter Posts: 2,531Free
    edited March 2013

    All I'm gonna say is that a lot of these guys that are listed have drifted away from either relevance or from their ground game style, simply cause their style isn't effective, despite being, say, JJ black belts. Jones is effective and doesn't need a black belt from a Gracie or Nogueira.

    The fact that some of these guys have been outworked on the ground before shows just that. If you wanna call this thread "who is the most well rounded", fine. But to say these guys are the best when they aren't the most effective or efficient? I think this just fails cause you're trying to "grade" it out of categories. Like I said, JJ doesn't need world class takedowns, takedown defense, submission skills, or submission escapes to break your orbital bone from guard and win a fight. Where as someone like Jacare or Maia needs a combination of that to win and be effective.

    I understand what you are saying as Jones fits the criteria well in all categories listed except escape which he's never had to with the exception of Vitor's armbar. He's definitely top of the food chain in grounded strikes.

    As for just overall ground skills he isn't nearly as technical as so many other grapplers. It's how you look at it I guess. He's very effective on the ground in fights and he has submissions. You got technicians and you have Jones who wants to bust you open with elbows right off the bat.

    It's opinion based anyway I see where you are coming from as far as effectiveness in an actual fight. I was looking at it a little more grappling oriented and guys that don't have 7+ feet wingspans. Not using that card in a negative way but he is a genetic freak and those elbows are nasty because of how much range he has with them.



    Post edited by Frontline_Rioter on
  • rodrodMMA92rodrodMMA92 TexasPosts: 3,980Free
    Za1994 said:

    BJ Penn if you consider all those factors.

    BJ Penn is a noob off his back. Only his top game is legit.
    Only time BJ is on his back for any period of time has been with overpowering WWs. His BJJ world title is legit. If you consider the factors @ the appropriate weight class (for BJ being LW) he's EASILY the best in this category.



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  • Za1994Za1994 Posts: 3,165Free

    Za1994 said:

    BJ Penn if you consider all those factors.

    BJ Penn is a noob off his back. Only his top game is legit.
    Only time BJ is on his back for any period of time has been with overpowering WWs. His BJJ world title is legit. If you consider the factors @ the appropriate weight class (for BJ being LW) he's EASILY the best in this category.
    BJ is dominant only when he has your back or when he's on top of you. BJ is a noob off his back.
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