Does improving wrestling result in less finishes?

keykey Posts: 371Free
edited July 2013 in UFC
I'll use three examples the last being the most popular guy.

Bisping - his game is mainly striking however he has greatly improved his defensive wrestling. This has resulted in less finishes and the 'pillow fist' tag.

Bendo - Again mainly a striker but since his move to the UFC his wrestling has become his most dominant attack. His finish rate has also took a dive and although not a boring fighter a few finishes may earn him more respect.

GSP - certainly the most successful non-wrestler and arguably the best current MMA wrestler. His last finish was BJ Penn (unfortunately for some) and since has not even come close to a finish. What happened to the rush of old?

So does wrestling take away from a natural strikers game or has MMA just improved and this all coincidental?
Post edited by key on

Does improving wrestling result in less finishes?

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  • keykey Posts: 371Free

    yes, but will also result in a better record.

    I agree, but why should wrestling diminish your ability to finish?

    Its so frustrating to watch people as skilled as GSP just Lay and Pray an opponent 'because he can'.

  • i_run_thisi_run_this Posts: 19,322Free
    lol, no
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  • keykey Posts: 371Free

    lol, no

    Lol. Would you believe the theory if Bendo layed on Pettis ala Guida?
  • Yesterdays_HeroYesterdays_Hero Posts: 23,619Free
    No. Not being able to finish tougher opponents results in less finishes.
  • BanduraBandura Posts: 1,453Free
    definitely results in more Diaz emotional breakdowns.

    So I'm cool with it.
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  • BAMfreddrickBAMfreddrick Somewhere in AlbertaPosts: 4,949Free
    No, its a coincidence
    Wrestling doesn't cause boring fights. Lack of killer instinct causes boring fights.
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  • MangasmMangasm Posts: 6,043Free

    Wrestling doesn't cause boring fights. Lack of killer instinct causes boring fights.

    This.

    Look at guys like Lesnar, Cain, and Jones. Wrestling can lead to some awesome finishes, you just have to actually want to improve position and ground n pound

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  • classicboxerclassicboxer Posts: 11,823Free
    Wrestling completely dominates Jiu Jitsu.
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  • zaksamezaksame Posts: 4,342Free
    Less finishes happen when fighters are well rounded and just tough to finish.You get more finished form fights that are lopsided.
    Example Hendrick's fights like Hendo and Kampmann usually likes ot bang so it was tailor made,Kampmann is far too skinny weak to handle Hendrick's power.

    Hendo-Bisping.
    Bisping just likes to stand so again tailor made as Bisping's stand up is awful,so was only a matter of time before Hendo caught him.

    As to GSP he is not even close to being a good wrestler,he ONLY uses take downs .He refuses to go for any locks,triangles or any wrestling moves,he won't even take your back either,he simply uses speed and cardio to maintain the pace of TD's.However it is extremely grueling,GSP is already showing signs that he can't keep up that pace forever.This will be his downfall to Hendrick's because he has not had to use the rest of his game,so he will be weak in those areas.However he is smart and so is his team,i am sure he is working on the rest of his game a lot more now.

    GSP finished Penn and NOBODY has ever done that ,not even Machida,matter fact ,i don't think i have ever seen a corner throw in the towel from a fighter not being able to answer the next round.There are a few finishes from grappling but the majority are RNC or arm triangle,so it really doesn't leave a lot of room for finishing outside of a KO.IMO a SMART fighters looks to nullify his opponent,looking for a KO is a sloppy way of fighting.
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  • keykey Posts: 371Free
    zaksame said:

    Less finishes happen when fighters are well rounded and just tough to finish.You get more finished form fights that are lopsided.
    Example Hendrick's fights like Hendo and Kampmann usually likes ot bang so it was tailor made,Kampmann is far too skinny weak to handle Hendrick's power.

    Hendo-Bisping.
    Bisping just likes to stand so again tailor made as Bisping's stand up is awful,so was only a matter of time before Hendo caught him.

    As to GSP he is not even close to being a good wrestler,he ONLY uses take downs .He refuses to go for any locks,triangles or any wrestling moves,he won't even take your back either,he simply uses speed and cardio to maintain the pace of TD's.However it is extremely grueling,GSP is already showing signs that he can't keep up that pace forever.This will be his downfall to Hendrick's because he has not had to use the rest of his game,so he will be weak in those areas.However he is smart and so is his team,i am sure he is working on the rest of his game a lot more now.

    GSP finished Penn and NOBODY has ever done that ,not even Machida,matter fact ,i don't think i have ever seen a corner throw in the towel from a fighter not being able to answer the next round.There are a few finishes from grappling but the majority are RNC or arm triangle,so it really doesn't leave a lot of room for finishing outside of a KO.IMO a SMART fighters looks to nullify his opponent,looking for a KO is a sloppy way of fighting.

    I believe that GSP has all the makings of a great MMA wrestler, his take downs are extremely effective and his control against guys like Diaz and Condit, both of whom are effective with the sweep, was very impressive. However as mentioned by some posters above he seems to have lost the 'killer instinct'. I'm not talking about headhunting I agree that is sloppy (and is why I do not respect Hendo's striking as a whole) but as you mentioned the arm triangle is there for the taking. GSP is strong enough and spends enough time on the ground to get this submission but doesn't.

    Also Bisping has very good striking, a lack of power does not mean a lack of technique. A solid chin and Bisping would have been a very tough fighter to beat.
  • BruteDionBruteDion Posts: 10,489Free
    key said:

    I'll use three examples the last being the most popular guy.

    Bisping - his game is mainly striking however he has greatly improved his defensive wrestling. This has resulted in less finishes and the 'pillow fist' tag.

    Bendo - Again mainly a striker but since his move to the UFC his wrestling has become his most dominant attack. His finish rate has also took a dive and although not a boring fighter a few finishes may earn him more respect.

    GSP - certainly the most successful non-wrestler and arguably the best current MMA wrestler. His last finish was BJ Penn (unfortunately for some) and since has not even come close to a finish. What happened to the rush of old?

    So does wrestling take away from a natural strikers game or has MMA just improved and this all coincidental?

    Lol no it does not lead to less finished...you just listed a few guys where it has for them uknow

    All those guys are former strikers who learned to wrestle...striking is not the only way to finish a guy

    What about BJJ guys?...if they learn wrestling the then it can help get them more finishes cuz they can get it into thier world

    Look at Jacare...he was always a beast on the ground...but he knew early that his BJJ alone would not get him wins over the top guys...so he took to learn wrestling to get it to the mat which ill lead to more finishes for him against the top guys

    I have always said that if a BJJ guy gets a lot of TDs in his arsenal for different positions or even Trips from Judo then he will be a more treating fighter then a BJJ guy alone or maybe even a Striker with wrestling

    Who here thinks Roger Gracie would have been less of a threat to Tim Kennedy if his wrestling was not better and he was the one getting the TDs and not Tim?...no one does cuz they know what would happen if Roger was the one controlling how the fight happened on the mat
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  • keykey Posts: 371Free
    BruteDion said:

    key said:

    I'll use three examples the last being the most popular guy.

    Bisping - his game is mainly striking however he has greatly improved his defensive wrestling. This has resulted in less finishes and the 'pillow fist' tag.

    Bendo - Again mainly a striker but since his move to the UFC his wrestling has become his most dominant attack. His finish rate has also took a dive and although not a boring fighter a few finishes may earn him more respect.

    GSP - certainly the most successful non-wrestler and arguably the best current MMA wrestler. His last finish was BJ Penn (unfortunately for some) and since has not even come close to a finish. What happened to the rush of old?

    So does wrestling take away from a natural strikers game or has MMA just improved and this all coincidental?

    Lol no it does not lead to less finished...you just listed a few guys where it has for them uknow

    All those guys are former strikers who learned to wrestle...striking is not the only way to finish a guy

    What about BJJ guys?...if they learn wrestling the then it can help get them more finishes cuz they can get it into thier world

    Look at Jacare...he was always a beast on the ground...but he knew early that his BJJ alone would not get him wins over the top guys...so he took to learn wrestling to get it to the mat which ill lead to more finishes for him against the top guys

    I have always said that if a BJJ guy gets a lot of TDs in his arsenal for different positions or even Trips from Judo then he will be a more treating fighter then a BJJ guy alone or maybe even a Striker with wrestling

    Who here thinks Roger Gracie would have been less of a threat to Tim Kennedy if his wrestling was not better and he was the one getting the TDs and not Tim?...no one does cuz they know what would happen if Roger was the one controlling how the fight happened on the mat
    Lol I agree 100%, BJJ guys certainly improve with wrestling. I think perhaps Werdum used a wrestling based attack in order to control and "submit" big Nog in their fight. I just feel it a little odd that the fighters I named have took on a skill that is vital for modern MMA and have seemingly become maybe not worse but less effective.
  • BruteDionBruteDion Posts: 10,489Free
    key said:

    BruteDion said:

    key said:

    I'll use three examples the last being the most popular guy.

    Bisping - his game is mainly striking however he has greatly improved his defensive wrestling. This has resulted in less finishes and the 'pillow fist' tag.

    Bendo - Again mainly a striker but since his move to the UFC his wrestling has become his most dominant attack. His finish rate has also took a dive and although not a boring fighter a few finishes may earn him more respect.

    GSP - certainly the most successful non-wrestler and arguably the best current MMA wrestler. His last finish was BJ Penn (unfortunately for some) and since has not even come close to a finish. What happened to the rush of old?

    So does wrestling take away from a natural strikers game or has MMA just improved and this all coincidental?

    Lol no it does not lead to less finished...you just listed a few guys where it has for them uknow

    All those guys are former strikers who learned to wrestle...striking is not the only way to finish a guy

    What about BJJ guys?...if they learn wrestling the then it can help get them more finishes cuz they can get it into thier world

    Look at Jacare...he was always a beast on the ground...but he knew early that his BJJ alone would not get him wins over the top guys...so he took to learn wrestling to get it to the mat which ill lead to more finishes for him against the top guys

    I have always said that if a BJJ guy gets a lot of TDs in his arsenal for different positions or even Trips from Judo then he will be a more treating fighter then a BJJ guy alone or maybe even a Striker with wrestling

    Who here thinks Roger Gracie would have been less of a threat to Tim Kennedy if his wrestling was not better and he was the one getting the TDs and not Tim?...no one does cuz they know what would happen if Roger was the one controlling how the fight happened on the mat
    Lol I agree 100%, BJJ guys certainly improve with wrestling. I think perhaps Werdum used a wrestling based attack in order to control and "submit" big Nog in their fight. I just feel it a little odd that the fighters I named have took on a skill that is vital for modern MMA and have seemingly become maybe not worse but less effective.
    It's not odd at all to me...those guys took wrestling in a different direction that's all...they used it for control were others use it to keep the fight in an area where they can finish

    I don't find them any less entertaining then any other fight...but I also like to watch the NCAA torney or the Olympics just as much as I like watching ADCC or a K-1 match (when it was good)

    Any style or art can be used in any way...just how you can find a boxer who only Jabs and uses Str8s (Edgar) or a BJJ guy who gets Control over going for finishes (Shields)...you also can find wrestlers who look to slam the **** out of you (Harris)
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