Is JDS a one trick pony?

AmerimanAmeriman Posts: 2,069Free
edited October 2013 in UFC
Look, I'm not a particularly big fan of JDS and I think he's going to be dominated again tonight, but it's simply naive to say that he's just a boxer with TDD. When you're purely reductionist like that, you ignore what it takes to develop take down defense like the kind JDS exhibits.

Take, for example, Chuck Liddell. Chuck had perhaps the greatest sprawl and brawl style the UFC has ever seen. It was nearly impossible to take him down, and when someone finally managed it, he was able to jump right back up. To what do scrupulous MMA analysts attribute this kind of TDD? It's obviously Chuck's wrestling background!

If you could take a pure boxer and teach them the kind of takedown defense that JDS has, you're no longer looking at a boxer fighting in MMA, you're looking at a veritable mixed martial artist! The reason is that once someone is well enough versed in wrestling to stuff takedowns from a guy like Velasquez, that person is no longer just a boxer.
Post edited by Ameriman on
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Comments

  • najmanajma Posts: 2,038Free
    edited October 2013
    JDS being a one trick pony refers to his offence. JDS is a 1 trick pony in that respect.

    /thread
    Post edited by najma on
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  • StompGrindStompGrind Posts: 21,224Free
    He is a one trick. His wrestling is ok, he's just a good athlete and he's **** strong. Mainly what helps him with his TDD is his distance and counter style.

    He does have excellent defense against single legs though. I would even say elite level defense but that is a small facet of TDD overall.
  • AmerimanAmeriman Posts: 2,069Free
    Well, he does at least threaten with take downs, doesn't he? He HAS won via submission before. My point is that he's not simply a boxer.
    Boston threw me a god damn beating. DOOMGOAT REIGNS SUPREME
  • WarWestWarWest Órale VatoPosts: 33,731Free
    Hello Ameriman

    I've missed you
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  • AmerimanAmeriman Posts: 2,069Free
    Strength and athleticism isn't enough to defend against the takedowns of guys who've trained their entire lives to control other men physically.
    Boston threw me a god damn beating. DOOMGOAT REIGNS SUPREME
  • AmerimanAmeriman Posts: 2,069Free
    WarWest said:

    Hello Ameriman

    I've missed you

    I was wondering when you'd acknowledge me... It's been hard...
    Boston threw me a god damn beating. DOOMGOAT REIGNS SUPREME
  • Little_KangLittle_Kang Posts: 17,800Moderator, Ultimate
    Two tricks actually. Uppercut and overhand right
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  • poonmachinepoonmachine Posts: 1,749Free
    Just because you don't submit people and utilize stand up doesn't make you a one trick pony, if he threw the same combo everytime then id agree with you but jds mixes up his striking well and has gone for the tdd before. and like the post above me says Spinning headkick the mans adding new material every fight. one trick pony? please
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  • StompGrindStompGrind Posts: 21,224Free
    edited October 2013
    Ameriman said:

    Well, he does at least threaten with take downs, doesn't he? He HAS won via submission before. My point is that he's not simply a boxer.

    Against Mark Hunt you gotta do what you gotta do concerning going for a TD and it damn sure threw Mark off his game otherwise Mark would have taken his head off. One guillotine throughout the course of a career does not make a fighter well rounded.

    There are on off fights though. Namja said it best. Offensively his is a one trick fighter. That is his strategy, to box. I will say he is currently evolving though.
    Ameriman said:

    Strength and athleticism isn't enough to defend against the takedowns of guys who've trained their entire lives to control other men physically.

    That's not completely true. High level wrestler's have been stuffed before by guys who weren't high level & even less athletic simply by using distance correctly so they could react quickly and or not get tied up giving them more chances to strike at range.

    I'm not saying Junior knows nothing but he's pure defense and avoidence when it comes to wrestling and absolutely his athletic ability, his strength and strategy combined are bigger factors than his technical ability to defensively wrestle.
    Post edited by StompGrind on
  • _Finish_Him__Finish_Him_ Posts: 11,585Free
    One trick pony?
    JDS got his BJJ black belt last year while Cain got his Belt last months. :-/
    JDS is knocking ppl out with one punch, it's not his only trick but it's his best trick and I prefer a KO artist istead of watching 1000GSP fights. I still love Cain he just gonna lose 2nite, blee dat!
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  • ThePack19ThePack19 Posts: 1,976Free
    PATSTER said:

    JDS' counter wrestling > Cain's wrestling

    JDS' striking > Cain's striking

    JDS' BJJ > Cain's BJJ

    Cain's cardio > JDS's cardio

    JDS > Cain

    And JDS had five rounds to prove it, he failed. And he will fail again.

  • AmerimanAmeriman Posts: 2,069Free

    Ameriman said:

    Well, he does at least threaten with take downs, doesn't he? He HAS won via submission before. My point is that he's not simply a boxer.

    Against Mark Hunt you gotta do what you gotta do concerning going for a TD and it damn sure threw Mark off his game otherwise Mark would have taken his head off. One guillotine throughout the course of a career does not make a fighter well rounded.

    There are on off fights though. Namja said it best. Offensively his is a one trick fighter. That is his strategy, to box. I will say he is currently evolving though.
    Ameriman said:

    Strength and athleticism isn't enough to defend against the takedowns of guys who've trained their entire lives to control other men physically.

    That's not completely true. High level wrestler's have been stuffed before by guys who weren't high level & even less athletic simply by using distance correctly so they could react quickly and or not get tied up giving them more chances to strike at range.

    I'm not saying Junior knows nothing but he's pure defense and avoidence when it comes to wrestling and absolutely his athletic ability, his strength and strategy combined are bigger factors than his technical ability to defensively wrestle.
    Your point regarding Mark Hunt seems to speak to my side of the argument...

    Do you know who else only has one submission win? Jose Aldo. Would you ever be tempted to say that Jose isn't well rounded because he prefers to strike? No. Jose Aldo has more of a background in bjj than he does in striking. My point is that the measure of a well rounded fighter is how many tools he has in his arsenal, not whether or not he chooses to use them.

    Well, you have to give evidence... That's an empirical claim. Give me an example of someone athletic and strong who defended the takedown of an elite wrestler without training takedown defense.
    Boston threw me a god damn beating. DOOMGOAT REIGNS SUPREME
  • StompGrindStompGrind Posts: 21,224Free

    One trick pony?
    JDS got his BJJ black belt last year while Cain got his Belt last months. :-/
    JDS is knocking ppl out with one punch, it's not his only trick but it's his best trick and I prefer a KO artist istead of watching 1000GSP fights. I still love Cain he just gonna lose 2nite, blee dat!

    Belts don't mean as much as people think. Pettis was a purple when he submitted BB Benson. JDS nearly got choked out by Carwin...lol His jitz is not BB level from what i've seen and he is pure defense, avoidance & survival with grappling.

    JDS is a terrific athlete, good puncher with a counter punch style to avoid grappling.

    He's a question fighter stacking the deck in one area and if you can't deal with that you get overwhelmed. Cain is a well rounded answer fighter that's adaptable and has an answer for everything.

  • _Finish_Him__Finish_Him_ Posts: 11,585Free

    One trick pony?
    JDS got his BJJ black belt last year while Cain got his Belt last months. :-/
    JDS is knocking ppl out with one punch, it's not his only trick but it's his best trick and I prefer a KO artist istead of watching 1000GSP fights. I still love Cain he just gonna lose 2nite, blee dat!

    Belts don't mean as much as people think. Pettis was a purple when he submitted BB Benson. JDS nearly got choked out by Carwin...lol His jitz is not BB level from what i've seen and he is pure defense, avoidance & survival with grappling.

    JDS is a terrific athlete, good puncher with a counter punch style to avoid grappling.

    He's a question fighter stacking the deck in one area and if you can't deal with that you get overwhelmed. Cain is a well rounded answer fighter that's adaptable and has an answer for everything.

    Yeah Agree... I'm just saying JDS knocks ppl out cold in the first rounds and he don't need to use wrestling much for an example that doesn't mean he don't know how to wrestle, he'll need to use it 2nite tho, Cain gonna mix it up.
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  • keykey Posts: 371Free
    Why is this "one trick" being viewed as a bad thing? He is one of the most devastating strikers in the HW division and just TKO'd a striking icon in Mark Hunt.

    I think Cain will win this again but JDS deserves a bit more respect than some are affording him.
  • Jason_H.Jason_H. Posts: 2,180Free
    Jr. is a one trick pony. No ground game. No jiu jitsu. Cain will finish him this time around.
    What??
  • _Finish_Him__Finish_Him_ Posts: 11,585Free
    Jason_H. said:

    Jr. is a one trick pony. No ground game. No jiu jitsu. Cain will finish him this time around.

    JDS has a black belt do you even UFC? And how often do you see JDS on his back in the UFC?
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  • Jason_H.Jason_H. Posts: 2,180Free

    Jason_H. said:

    Jr. is a one trick pony. No ground game. No jiu jitsu. Cain will finish him this time around.

    JDS has a black belt do you even UFC? And how often do you see JDS on his back in the UFC?
    I ufc everyday, bro. Junior is a BJJ Vitor black belt.
    What??
  • StompGrindStompGrind Posts: 21,224Free
    Ameriman said:

    Ameriman said:

    Well, he does at least threaten with take downs, doesn't he? He HAS won via submission before. My point is that he's not simply a boxer.

    Against Mark Hunt you gotta do what you gotta do concerning going for a TD and it damn sure threw Mark off his game otherwise Mark would have taken his head off. One guillotine throughout the course of a career does not make a fighter well rounded.

    There are on off fights though. Namja said it best. Offensively his is a one trick fighter. That is his strategy, to box. I will say he is currently evolving though.
    Ameriman said:

    Strength and athleticism isn't enough to defend against the takedowns of guys who've trained their entire lives to control other men physically.

    That's not completely true. High level wrestler's have been stuffed before by guys who weren't high level & even less athletic simply by using distance correctly so they could react quickly and or not get tied up giving them more chances to strike at range.

    I'm not saying Junior knows nothing but he's pure defense and avoidence when it comes to wrestling and absolutely his athletic ability, his strength and strategy combined are bigger factors than his technical ability to defensively wrestle.
    Your point regarding Mark Hunt seems to speak to my side of the argument...

    Do you know who else only has one submission win? Jose Aldo. Would you ever be tempted to say that Jose isn't well rounded because he prefers to strike? No. Jose Aldo has more of a background in bjj than he does in striking. My point is that the measure of a well rounded fighter is how many tools he has in his arsenal, not whether or not he chooses to use them.

    Well, you have to give evidence... That's an empirical claim. Give me an example of someone athletic and strong who defended the takedown of an elite wrestler without training takedown defense.
    On Hunto not really. Hunto is not a grappler although he has it in his arsenal he's pretty one trick as well. Lets see JDS try takedowns against Cain or Cormier or Barnett. Not gonna happen.

    Aldo does use his grappling and he is actually high level both in defensive and offensive grappling. I'd measure a well rounded fighter by how they fight with their tools. I'm sure James Toney had atleast some knowledge of a underhook & sprawl defense against Randy. Just because he knew a technique doesn't mean he's well rounded or he has the years of refinement, sharp reflexes, and the conditioning to do it over and over without getting tired.

    One the elite wrestler man i wish i could think of it now but it was some less popular org and Bas Rutten commented on it on Inside MMA. There are plenty of fights though were better wrestlers got shut down and stuffed once or twice then KO'ed before they could get that critical takedown and grind their way to wearing the opponent down and winning the battle of energy expenditure and attrition.
  • AmerimanAmeriman Posts: 2,069Free
    edited October 2013

    Ameriman said:

    Ameriman said:

    Well, he does at least threaten with take downs, doesn't he? He HAS won via submission before. My point is that he's not simply a boxer.

    Against Mark Hunt you gotta do what you gotta do concerning going for a TD and it damn sure threw Mark off his game otherwise Mark would have taken his head off. One guillotine throughout the course of a career does not make a fighter well rounded.

    There are on off fights though. Namja said it best. Offensively his is a one trick fighter. That is his strategy, to box. I will say he is currently evolving though.
    Ameriman said:

    Strength and athleticism isn't enough to defend against the takedowns of guys who've trained their entire lives to control other men physically.

    That's not completely true. High level wrestler's have been stuffed before by guys who weren't high level & even less athletic simply by using distance correctly so they could react quickly and or not get tied up giving them more chances to strike at range.

    I'm not saying Junior knows nothing but he's pure defense and avoidence when it comes to wrestling and absolutely his athletic ability, his strength and strategy combined are bigger factors than his technical ability to defensively wrestle.
    Your point regarding Mark Hunt seems to speak to my side of the argument...

    Do you know who else only has one submission win? Jose Aldo. Would you ever be tempted to say that Jose isn't well rounded because he prefers to strike? No. Jose Aldo has more of a background in bjj than he does in striking. My point is that the measure of a well rounded fighter is how many tools he has in his arsenal, not whether or not he chooses to use them.

    Well, you have to give evidence... That's an empirical claim. Give me an example of someone athletic and strong who defended the takedown of an elite wrestler without training takedown defense.
    On Hunto not really. Hunto is not a grappler although he has it in his arsenal he's pretty one trick as well. Lets see JDS try takedowns against Cain or Cormier or Barnett. Not gonna happen.

    Aldo does use his grappling and he is actually high level both in defensive and offensive grappling. I'd measure a well rounded fighter by how they fight with their tools. I'm sure James Toney had atleast some knowledge of a underhook & sprawl defense against Randy. Just because he knew a technique doesn't mean he's well rounded or he has the years of refinement, sharp reflexes, and the conditioning to do it over and over without getting tired.

    One the elite wrestler man i wish i could think of it now but it was some less popular org and Bas Rutten commented on it on Inside MMA. There are plenty of fights though were better wrestlers got shut down and stuffed once or twice then KO'ed before they could get that critical takedown and grind their way to wearing the opponent down and winning the battle of energy expenditure and attrition.
    JDS was using takedowns to stifle the striking offense of an elite striker... Can you think of a better reason for a striker to utilize takedowns...? Also, you neglected to mention that JDS took Carwin down. TWICE.

    You clearly missed my point, and I again think your remarks are supportive of MY position. You're right that the measure of a well rounded fighter is how well they fight with those tools - which you might notice isn't incompatible with what I said - and I would submit that JDS fights remarkably well with all of his tools when he chooses to use them... So, thank you for making my point for me.

    AGAIN, you missed my point about elite wrestlers. I said that strength and athleticism alone are not enough to defend the takedown of an elite wrestler. You haven't really given any evidence to the contrary. I'm telling you to give me an example of someone who has never trained takedown defense stuffing the takedowns of an elite wrestler using only strength and athleticism. I really think you should concede this point. There is absolutely no evidence of what you've said.
    Post edited by Ameriman on
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  • StompGrindStompGrind Posts: 21,224Free
    key said:

    Why is this "one trick" being viewed as a bad thing? He is one of the most devastating strikers in the HW division and just TKO'd a striking icon in Mark Hunt.

    I think Cain will win this again but JDS deserves a bit more respect than some are affording him.

    It's definitely not always a bad thing and is quite powerful against a large variety of opponents but it can be bad for him against fighters that have a style that can avoid his one question he presents which is can you take him down/close distance and avoid his boxing.

    JDS doesn't present any other threat.
  • classicboxerclassicboxer Posts: 11,823Free

    Jason_H. said:

    Jr. is a one trick pony. No ground game. No jiu jitsu. Cain will finish him this time around.

    JDS has a black belt do you even UFC? And how often do you see JDS on his back in the UFC?
    All the Brazilian strikers who suck on the ground have BJJ black belts.
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  • StompGrindStompGrind Posts: 21,224Free
    Ameriman said:

    Ameriman said:

    Ameriman said:

    Well, he does at least threaten with take downs, doesn't he? He HAS won via submission before. My point is that he's not simply a boxer.

    Against Mark Hunt you gotta do what you gotta do concerning going for a TD and it damn sure threw Mark off his game otherwise Mark would have taken his head off. One guillotine throughout the course of a career does not make a fighter well rounded.

    There are on off fights though. Namja said it best. Offensively his is a one trick fighter. That is his strategy, to box. I will say he is currently evolving though.
    Ameriman said:

    Strength and athleticism isn't enough to defend against the takedowns of guys who've trained their entire lives to control other men physically.

    That's not completely true. High level wrestler's have been stuffed before by guys who weren't high level & even less athletic simply by using distance correctly so they could react quickly and or not get tied up giving them more chances to strike at range.

    I'm not saying Junior knows nothing but he's pure defense and avoidence when it comes to wrestling and absolutely his athletic ability, his strength and strategy combined are bigger factors than his technical ability to defensively wrestle.
    Your point regarding Mark Hunt seems to speak to my side of the argument...

    Do you know who else only has one submission win? Jose Aldo. Would you ever be tempted to say that Jose isn't well rounded because he prefers to strike? No. Jose Aldo has more of a background in bjj than he does in striking. My point is that the measure of a well rounded fighter is how many tools he has in his arsenal, not whether or not he chooses to use them.

    Well, you have to give evidence... That's an empirical claim. Give me an example of someone athletic and strong who defended the takedown of an elite wrestler without training takedown defense.
    On Hunto not really. Hunto is not a grappler although he has it in his arsenal he's pretty one trick as well. Lets see JDS try takedowns against Cain or Cormier or Barnett. Not gonna happen.

    Aldo does use his grappling and he is actually high level both in defensive and offensive grappling. I'd measure a well rounded fighter by how they fight with their tools. I'm sure James Toney had atleast some knowledge of a underhook & sprawl defense against Randy. Just because he knew a technique doesn't mean he's well rounded or he has the years of refinement, sharp reflexes, and the conditioning to do it over and over without getting tired.

    One the elite wrestler man i wish i could think of it now but it was some less popular org and Bas Rutten commented on it on Inside MMA. There are plenty of fights though were better wrestlers got shut down and stuffed once or twice then KO'ed before they could get that critical takedown and grind their way to wearing the opponent down and winning the battle of energy expenditure and attrition.
    JDS was using takedowns to stifle the striking offense of an elite striker... Can you think of a better reason for a striker to utilize takedowns...? Also, you neglected to mention that JDS took Carwin down. TWICE.

    You clearly missed my point, and I again think your remarks are supportive of MY position. You're right that the measure of a well rounded fighter is how well they fight with those tools - which you might notice isn't incompatible with what I said - and I would submit that JDS fights remarkably well with all of his tools when he chooses to use them... So, thank you for making my point for me.

    AGAIN, you missed my point about elite wrestlers. I said that strength and athleticism alone are not enough to defend the takedown of an elite wrestler. You haven't really given any evidence to the contrary. I'm telling you to give me an example of someone who has never trained takedown defense stuffing the takedowns of an elite wrestler using only strength and athleticism. I really think you should concede this point. There is absolutely no evidence of what you've said.
    How is it supportive of your argument that JDS took down another non high level grappler? Fair point on him taking down Carwin but did he do it early in the fight and did Carwin expect that at all? I don't remember if he did it early or not but it definitely was a surprise which plays a factor. Carwin was battered and gassed no? The great wrestler GSP who when tired even had trouble against Nick Diaz who has mediocre to poor TDD at best.

    I never said strength and athleticism "alone" are enough. I even clarified in my post that JDS strength/athletic ability and strategy combined has more to do with how well he counters wrestling than his technical ability at it.

    If JDS was a beast off his back submitting/sweeping/striking or had an amazing dirty clinch game, or took people down and GnP or submit i'd definitely be singing a different tune but he's just not that good at those things. He has defense against the hard counters to his over loaded style but that's it.

    One threat, One trick.
  • PunchBagPunchBag Posts: 7,824Free
    the fact that hs has only lost 1 fight in the ufc and has beaten better opponents than cain suggests he must be doing something right.
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  • najmanajma Posts: 2,038Free
    PunchBag said:

    the fact that hs has only lost 1 fight in the ufc and has beaten better opponents than cain suggests he must be doing something right.

    The fact that he was outclassed in every facet of the game by Cain suggests that not everything he does is right.

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  • PunchBagPunchBag Posts: 7,824Free
    edited October 2013
    im not convinced we seen the real jds in that fight, if he gets soundly beaten by cain again then i will agree with you. But basically there were a few things he needed to change up after that fight to keep his style successful gonig into the 3rd fight.
    Post edited by PunchBag on
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  • WarWestWarWest Órale VatoPosts: 33,731Free
    Nah

    Not in my opinion
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  • wanderleisilva101wanderleisilva101 Posts: 9,402Free
    edited October 2013
    That fact Cain got laid out flat in under 60 seconds proves he doesn't do everything right. He likes to strike coz he's far ahead skill wise in that aspect than most/all the division he has other other sides to his game to tho his wrestling is underrated. Both these guys are the best two fighters in there division neither is a one trick pony imo.
    Post edited by wanderleisilva101 on
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  • PunchBagPunchBag Posts: 7,824Free
    edited October 2013
    cain also got hurt badly by Kongo,
    Post edited by PunchBag on
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  • WarWestWarWest Órale VatoPosts: 33,731Free
    PunchBag said:

    cain also got hurt badly by Kongo,

    Kongo actually KO'd him 3 times

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