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ijosef

Ben Askren is right about Kan Gracie

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https://www.lowkickmma.com/ben-askren-hates-on-kron-gracies-debut-with-interesting-factoid/

“Not trying to start a fight but….. wrestlers hold 7 of 8 male ufc titles and people are meh….. 1 high level BJJ guy chokes a very low level grappler and people be like #BJJ4life”

I was happy to see Kron fight in the UFC, but I wasn't looking forward to the gracie myth rearing its ugly head again. Once people figured out parlor tricks, it was all over for pure BJJ. Even great submission artists like Demian Maia have to rely on wrestling to use their subs... when someone can stuff their takedowns, their submission game is rendered useless.

Ultimately, grappling is grappling. Most of the BJJ community has recognized the Gracie marketing shtick for what it is and has since moved on, but for whatever reason, part of the MMA community has not. For crying out loud, Ariel Helwani even said something akin to "...he's the grandson of Helio Gracie, the man who invented BJJ." Idiot.

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Honestly, it was cool and effective when Royce used it and none of his opponents even know what it was, much less how to defend against it. The only person who knew submissions in the first few tournaments was Ken Shamrock, who was a pretty good shoot wrestler. We all know how their first meeting ended - Shamrock goes for a leg, slips, and Gracie winds up taking Ken's back and tapping him with a choke. Ken Shamrock blames the loss on the fact that the Gracies - panicking because someone they allowed in the tournament knew submissions - refused to let him wear his wrestling shoes. Now, who knows how it would've gone otherwise, but any wrestler who steps on a BJJ mat for the first time will tell you how weird it feels to be grappling without shoes - almost like you're on ice skates at first. We all know how the rematch went - Shamrock spent over half an hour on top of Gracie and Royce could do absolutely nothing (granted, neither did Ken).

When Royce went over to Japan and fought Sakuraba, a catch wrestler, he got schooled. He also got choked out by Yoshida, a judoka (although the Gracies pitched a fit and somehow got that overturned).

I have nothing against BJJ - in fact I think it's the best martial art to train in - but there's nothing inherent about BJJ that makes it any better than any of the grappling arts. It's the best right now simply because of the number of practitioners in the art. The more people bringing in their experience, innovating, etc. BJJ itself has evolved more in the past 25 years than it had since the Gracie's claimed to have invented it.

Don't get me wrong - we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the Gracies marketing their art. If they hadn't screened the opponents beforehand and set the whole thing up as a showcase for BJJ, MMA as we know it may not even exist. That alone is worth the price of admission. However, we need to leave the creation myths behind.

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Just because you've wrestled doesn't make you a wrestler. Jon, Bobby, Max and TJ aren't wrestlers and if we're differentiating between grappling styles Khabib does Sambo. Which leaves you with DC, Henry and Tyron who all won their titles with striking. Wrestling absolutely sucks

240e57923a884441686a76d355e8be97.png

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BJJ -  finishes fights while 

Wrestling - imposes will and dominate to get an UD (dont get me wrong wrestling is just amazing and perhaps more effect than Jiu Jitsu imo).

Before you cans come at me Im not saying dont finish fights but lets keep it real .. a lot of them make it boring AF and try to score points on the cards.

Funny how Askren says that but if you look at his record he got a bunch of decisions and TKOs

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17 minutes ago, Yesterdays_Hero said:

Just because you've wrestled doesn't make you a wrestler. Jon, Bobby, Max and TJ aren't wrestlers and if we're differentiating between grappling styles Khabib does Sambo. Which leaves you with DC, Henry and Tyron who all won their titles with striking. Wrestling absolutely sucks

240e57923a884441686a76d355e8be97.png

TJ is a wrestler, didn't you see him going for that single leg on Cejudo?

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i just seen some weird video of this gracie dude with nick diaz and they were smoking a joint and doing triathalon sh*t

kron is a fitting name for this guy

Edited by -idyb-

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1 hour ago, Dark_Horse said:

There's no such fking thing as BJJ. Just Jiu Jitsu. Filthy Brazilian animals trying to take credit for Japanese martial arts. 

I thought the story was Helio or whoever learned Jiu Jitsu from the Japanese and basically altered it to make it more effective against stronger opponents. Either way though, the two are different. The Japanese style focuses on a lot of standing joint locks that you don't see in BJJ. Some other differences too. It's no different than "Dutch Style Kickboxing" and "American Kickboxing." They are different enough for one word to be different, but not so much that they aren't the same art. I guess. Lol.

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2 hours ago, Dark_Horse said:

There's no such fking thing as BJJ. Just Jiu Jitsu. Filthy Brazilian animals trying to take credit for Japanese martial arts. 

We need to talk ... Might pay you a visit m8

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55 minutes ago, BarbaricBob said:

I thought the story was Helio or whoever learned Jiu Jitsu from the Japanese and basically altered it to make it more effective against stronger opponents. Either way though, the two are different. The Japanese style focuses on a lot of standing joint locks that you don't see in BJJ. Some other differences too. It's no different than "Dutch Style Kickboxing" and "American Kickboxing." They are different enough for one word to be different, but not so much that they aren't the same art. I guess. Lol.

That's the story I've seen too. Helio was small so adapted the art to fit what he was able to do. 

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5 hours ago, Yesterdays_Hero said:

Just because you've wrestled doesn't make you a wrestler. Jon, Bobby, Max and TJ aren't wrestlers and if we're differentiating between grappling styles Khabib does Sambo. Which leaves you with DC, Henry and Tyron who all won their titles with striking. Wrestling absolutely sucks

240e57923a884441686a76d355e8be97.png

Sambo is basically a cross between catch wrestling and judo. 

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6 hours ago, ijosef said:

Honestly, it was cool and effective when Royce used it and none of his opponents even know what it was, much less how to defend against it. The only person who knew submissions in the first few tournaments was Ken Shamrock, who was a pretty good shoot wrestler. We all know how their first meeting ended - Shamrock goes for a leg, slips, and Gracie winds up taking Ken's back and tapping him with a choke. Ken Shamrock blames the loss on the fact that the Gracies - panicking because someone they allowed in the tournament knew submissions - refused to let him wear his wrestling shoes. Now, who knows how it would've gone otherwise, but any wrestler who steps on a BJJ mat for the first time will tell you how weird it feels to be grappling without shoes - almost like you're on ice skates at first. We all know how the rematch went - Shamrock spent over half an hour on top of Gracie and Royce could do absolutely nothing (granted, neither did Ken).

When Royce went over to Japan and fought Sakuraba, a catch wrestler, he got schooled. He also got choked out by Yoshida, a judoka (although the Gracies pitched a fit and somehow got that overturned).

I have nothing against BJJ - in fact I think it's the best martial art to train in - but there's nothing inherent about BJJ that makes it any better than any of the grappling arts. It's the best right now simply because of the number of practitioners in the art. The more people bringing in their experience, innovating, etc. BJJ itself has evolved more in the past 25 years than it had since the Gracie's claimed to have invented it.

Don't get me wrong - we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the Gracies marketing their art. If they hadn't screened the opponents beforehand and set the whole thing up as a showcase for BJJ, MMA as we know it may not even exist. That alone is worth the price of admission. However, we need to leave the creation myths behind.

cant forget Oleg as well, he was well versed in submissions due to his sambo background.

 

 

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He's got a point, people only credit it when they want to, even if it's not your favourite thing (which is fair enough) we can't deny it's a powerful thing within the MMA and is very effective (not that people are doing that here, I mean in general), I think it's because a lot of people want to just see the slugfests, blood and KO's rather than the skill and technique in the wrestling side of things so they don't credit that (again, not here, I mean people in general which you see and hear about).

It's like Gregor Gillespie says (see my previous thread about the wrestling style matches) he couldn't understand why he was being boo'd after his match with Yancy other than because people thought the fight was boring and didn't see these slugfests going on but he was trying to get the finish (which he eventually did) and the guys competed to the best of their ability there which is what we want to see but because it was on the ground for most of the rounds, they weren't interested which I can understand if people find that boring (of course) but it's like are some people fans of MMA and the skill that comes with it or do they just like to see crazy slug fests with blood (if that's the case bare knuckle fighting might be more suited).

I know we all have our preferences and that's fine, but I do feel that sometimes BJJ and all that wrestling style fighting 'sometimes' gets dismissed a little unfairly. I prefer the stand up game over the wrestling stuff too but I also enjoy the skill that comes with it the wrestling style, I guess it just depends on the fighter as long as they are trying to finish their opponent as opposed to just holding their opponent.

You need to add as much ground and pound as well as throwing them around like a rag doll to make it effective and entertaining where as some will just hold their opponent which is when it can become boring (and probably where the credit isn't given).

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7 hours ago, BarbaricBob said:

I thought the story was Helio or whoever learned Jiu Jitsu from the Japanese and basically altered it to make it more effective against stronger opponents. Either way though, the two are different. The Japanese style focuses on a lot of standing joint locks that you don't see in BJJ. Some other differences too. It's no different than "Dutch Style Kickboxing" and "American Kickboxing." They are different enough for one word to be different, but not so much that they aren't the same art. I guess. Lol.

Bullchit. If he changed it so much, then change the entire name. It's just gracie ego, like we see in everything. Every body shape adapts a style. It would be impossible not too. I'm a black belt in goji ryu and shotokan karate. My sensei  was 6'4". I am 5'10". Obviously I don't copy his style perfectly. Does that now make what I do English karate? Or what he learned in Japan and brought over here? Fck no.

In fact it just goes to show what disrespectful turds the gracies are even pretending they changed it anyway. Disrespectful to their dojos. Fck the lot of 'em.

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4 minutes ago, Dark_Horse said:

Bullchit. If he changed it so much, then change the entire name. It's just gracie ego, like we see in everything. Every body shape adapts a style. It would be impossible not too. I'm a black belt in goji ryu and shotokan karate. My sensei  was 6'4". I am 5'10". Obviously I don't copy his style perfectly. Does that now make what I do English karate? Or what he learned in Japan and brought over here? Fck no.

In fact it just goes to show what disrespectful turds the gracies are even pretending they changed it anyway. Disrespectful to their dojos. Fck the lot of 'em.

Apples and oranges. Your individual experience isn't even comparable to an entire family developing and training an art together for years. We can agree to disagree, I suppose. You're obviously triggered by it, and I don't care enough to keep arguing about it.

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2 minutes ago, BarbaricBob said:

Apples and oranges. Your individual experience isn't even comparable to an entire family developing and training an art together for years. We can agree to disagree, I suppose. You're obviously triggered by it, and I don't care enough to keep arguing about it.

It's nothing to do with my individual experiences, or even mma. It's tradition. You don't chit on your dojo. The end.

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10 minutes ago, Dark_Horse said:

Bullchit. If he changed it so much, then change the entire name. It's just gracie ego, like we see in everything. Every body shape adapts a style. It would be impossible not too. I'm a black belt in goji ryu and shotokan karate. My sensei  was 6'4". I am 5'10". Obviously I don't copy his style perfectly. Does that now make what I do English karate? Or what he learned in Japan and brought over here? Fck no.

In fact it just goes to show what disrespectful turds the gracies are even pretending they changed it anyway. Disrespectful to their dojos. Fck the lot of 'em.

Man, do you want to show up at one of their gyms and kick their asses? I'll work security for you, homie.

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1 minute ago, cashfl0w said:

Man, do you want to show up at one of their gyms and kick their asses? I'll work security for you, homie.

GKR is a worldwide club. There's literally hundreds of thousands of us. Not sure how it would work. Besides, it has zero to do with fighting. I'm talking about respect and tradition. 

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On 2/20/2019 at 6:14 PM, ijosef said:

t it is and has since moved on, but for whatever reason, part of the MMA community has not. For crying out loud, Ariel Helwani even said something akin to "...he's the grandson

It wasn't even all about not knowing,MANY of the early UFC fighters were no more than dumb **** bar brawlers,their fight iQ was very low anyhow.Dan Severyn a pure wrestler,horrible striking,very similar to a Brock Lesnar,dominated for a while and no BJJ was going to stop him because he had a decent fight IQ.

There are still some really dumb fighters who are just Tank About tough,but most have a decent enough fight IQ to not get submitted.What baffles me is how the sport has not learned how to stuff wrestling TD's,only thing i can think of is that too many are not very coordinated or athletic,too much weight room training so they don't have the quickness to react nor the agility.

I still see so many fighters get pushed on the cage and they just sit there,almost never get down low but instead stand straight up and make them,selves and easier target to take down.So yeah the fight IQ is what separates these guys,BJJ tends to offer up a smarter way of thinking so their fight IQ tends to be higher.

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5 minutes ago, zaksame said:

It wasn't even all about not knowing,MANY of the early UFC fighters were no more than dumb **** bar brawlers,their fight iQ was very low anyhow.Dan Severyn a pure wrestler,horrible striking,very similar to a Brock Lesnar,dominated for a while and no BJJ was going to stop him because he had a decent fight IQ.

There are still some really dumb fighters who are just Tank About tough,but most have a decent enough fight IQ to not get submitted.What baffles me is how the sport has not learned how to stuff wrestling TD's,only thing i can think of is that too many are not very coordinated or athletic,too much weight room training so they don't have the quickness to react nor the agility.

I still see so many fighters get pushed on the cage and they just sit there,almost never get down low but instead stand straight up and make them,selves and easier target to take down.So yeah the fight IQ is what separates these guys,BJJ tends to offer up a smarter way of thinking so their fight IQ tends to be higher.

Royce submitted him to win UFC 4

 

Also screen shotting this legendary moment of a Zaksame quote

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12 hours ago, BarbaricBob said:

I thought the story was Helio or whoever learned Jiu Jitsu from the Japanese and basically altered it to make it more effective against stronger opponents. Either way though, the two are different. The Japanese style focuses on a lot of standing joint locks that you don't see in BJJ. Some other differences too. It's no different than "Dutch Style Kickboxing" and "American Kickboxing." They are different enough for one word to be different, but not so much that they aren't the same art. I guess. Lol.

 

11 hours ago, juice64011 said:

That's the story I've seen too. Helio was small so adapted the art to fit what he was able to do. 

The idea of Helio being too sickly/frail (he wasn't) to use the techniques his brothers were doing and therefore modifying/adding leverage (he didn't) to "create" BJJ has been thoroughly debunked. Honestly, I don't think Helio himself ever told it that way  - it was a creation myth made up after the fact.

http://global-training-report.com/myths.htm

^^^That link is worth reading if you have the time. One worthy quote:

Every aspect of early modern BJJ was already being trained and taught as early as 1905 in the USA and England. 

 

 

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On 2/20/2019 at 7:17 PM, Yesterdays_Hero said:

Just because you've wrestled doesn't make you a wrestler. Jon, Bobby, Max and TJ aren't wrestlers and if we're differentiating between grappling styles Khabib does Sambo. Which leaves you with DC, Henry and Tyron who all won their titles with striking. Wrestling absolutely sucks

240e57923a884441686a76d355e8be97.png

Dillashaw got a college scholarship for wrestling, and was a 3x NCAA qualifier. 

Jones was a state champion wrestler in highschool and wrestled in community college before dropping out to start his MMA career. 

Just because they don't rely on takedown heavy gameplans in their fights doesn't mean they're not wrasslers. Not having to worry about some BJJ can getting them to the floor makes them more effective strikers.

Askren is still wrong, though. No New Zealander or Hawaiin can wrassle. 

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One of the things I absolutely agree with Josh Barnett on is the frequently mislabeling of all submission grappling as "BJJ" or "jiu-jitsu". Khabib is an excellent example, and that shirt he wore was hilarious. Rafael Dos Anjos said he was going to make Khabib pay for "disrespecting jiu-jitsu" only to get ragdolled. RDA is an extremely skilled BJJ blackblet, but it's not the only grappling art in the world and not necessarily the best either.

Still, you'll hear guys like Brendan Schaub (granted, he's a doofus) talk about how good "Khabib's jiu-jitsu" is. Khabib doesn't do jiu-jitsu. He's a sambist and a wrestler. Fedor was submitting people years ago and he openly admits that he doesn't do BJJ at all. And, once again, Billy Robinson-trained catch wrestler was submitting Gracies without ever having taken so much as a lesson in BJJ.

Again, I'm not trying to hate on BJJ. I think it's a wonderful system if you want to explore martial arts. In fact, my thought was "I can practice an art while laying on a cushioned mat on my back? This is the best!" However, we need to dispense with the propaganda. We're too far along in the evolution of MMA to still make cringeworthy mistakes like "Helio invented BJJ" or act like all submissions are BJJ.

Edited by ijosef
misssspellllllinggggsss
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1 hour ago, PunchBag said:

this is what happens when askren cant get a takedown

 

 

Not a good look, but that Brazilian can was already gassing. He would have gotten destroyed if the fight continued. 

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1 hour ago, PunchBag said:

this is what happens when askren cant get a takedown

 

 

The book has been written on Askren then.

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8 hours ago, 12er© said:

Not a good look, but that Brazilian can was already gassing. He would have gotten destroyed if the fight continued. 

true but hes like 40 and a can so no surprise there. askren is basically a cross between jake shields and damian maia

Edited by PunchBag

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On 2/21/2019 at 4:54 AM, Welcome_to_Moe's said:

Condensed essay

 

Wrestling wasn't nearly as effective in Pride. The cage favours stallers as does the lack of soccer kicks, kicking downed opponents and certain elbows which is why I've always wanted them use Pride rules and fight in a damn ring.

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9 hours ago, T.B.E said:

 

Wrestling wasn't nearly as effective in Pride. The cage favours stallers as does the lack of soccer kicks, kicking downed opponents and certain elbows which is why I've always wanted them use Pride rules and fight in a damn ring.

I used to be a "cage is best durhurderp" type guy, but I've come around to your line of thinking. All sports, martial arts and MMA included, evolved towards their ruleset. This includes utilizing the fence in various ways, naturally. A ring will have its own set of limitations and exploits as well, but I think it's a good trade-off. I'd actually like to see a fairly good-sized ring, even larger that the 20' standard (25 or maybe even 30 feet). I don't know how large you could go without having issues with the ropes.

I love the use of soccer kicks and stomps, but I don't know how easy it would be to get American athletic commissions to accept them. After all, they still can't get around the 12-6 elbow rule.

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i hated the constant ref interference with the rings. Like it felt every minute the ref would have to dive in call time out move the fighters. It really affected the flow of the fights, not to mention the injuries sustained by fighters going over the ropes.

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13 hours ago, PunchBag said:

i hated the constant ref interference with the rings. Like it felt every minute the ref would have to dive in call time out move the fighters. It really affected the flow of the fights, not to mention the injuries sustained by fighters going over the ropes.

 

It never felt like that at all. The ref intervened when there was no action or to reset them to the center of the ring which led to more action. Rounds go by in the UFC with fighters pressed against the cage while the ref just watches because it's part of the rules. The cage restricts the movement of the one being pressed but in a ring that fighter still has room to manoeuvre

How many injuries occurred with people flying over the ropes in Pride because I don't remember any?

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13 hours ago, PunchBag said:

i hated the constant ref interference with the rings. Like it felt every minute the ref would have to dive in call time out move the fighters. It really affected the flow of the fights, not to mention the injuries sustained by fighters going over the ropes.

Yes, that's one of the big drawbacks. I remember Frank Mir talking about how rings were better after he got Brocksmashed at UFC 100. He kept saying how he'd be able to slide under the ropes and they'd have to restart in the middle of the ring... which, of course, would allow him to win in his mind.

Anyway, I wonder if a larger ring would help mitigate that at least somewhat. The largest ones they make - at least that I can find from the great googler - are 30' from rope to rope, which is larger than the standard "full size" boxing ring of 20'.

1 hour ago, PATSTER said:

You idiots seriously posted 35 times about Ben Askren and Krone Gracie? 

Jesus christ

To be fair, I was just using those two as a springboard to attack the tired old Gracie/BJJ myth. I'm sorry it led to more Askren talk than was warranted.

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