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Which is the truly more extreme position?


DL4TRU_STRENGTH

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Both are pretty extreme but not allowing abortion after rape is even more extreme imo. Richard Mourdock is a tool btw. :P

 

The way i look at it is late abortion isn't much different than early abortion. It's still abortion.

 

Why should abortion be allowed after rape? And I appreciate your consistency regarding the differences between late vs early abortion. However, the question at hand is in regards to extremism, and I doubt most reasonable people would view partial birth abortion in the same way they would abortion in the first 6-8 weeks.

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Why should abortion be allowed after rape? And I appreciate your consistency regarding the differences between late vs early abortion. However' date=' the question at hand is in regards to extremism, and I doubt most reasonable people would view partial birth abortion in the same way they would abortion in the first 6-8 weeks.[/quote']

 

Your kidding right. Why should abortion be allowed after rape? Sounds like something Todd Akin would say. :P

 

Because i think you should have the right to choose under those horrific circumstances and i definitely don't agree with religious nutjobs that think all of it is eqiuvalent to murder. They way they push pro life wearing a condom or jerking off is murder. lol

 

Your second question i never said most people view them the same. What i was saying is imo it's not THAT much different as it's still abortion. To me the religious nutjob position is more extreme.

 

My own postion is im sort of on the fence with abortion. Im in agreement that a potential child should have a right to life but at the same time the person having child should have the right do what they want with thier own body especially under certain circumstances like rape, incest or the mother's life is in danger during pregancy. Another thing is you have people like welfare queens popping out babies as a career. Forget abortion for them they should probably be forced to have thier tubes tied and this is coming from someone that's a big time supporter of rights.

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Nope, not kidding at all - why is a child conceived by rape less worthy of life than any other child?

 

And I wasnt presuming you should or would agree with me about how later term abortion is viewed; but the premise is based on which is more extreme and why, not how logic factors into it in any way. There are many positions I have that I would easily characterize as "extreme", per what most mainstream folks might presume, but then again, like you, I have a certain level of logic & principle which I make my decisions by, I dont just pick what "feels better".

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There is no such thing as worthy. In nature animals eat their young, innocent little rabbits get ripped to shreds by wolves. Many wanted pregnancies end prematurely and the baby does not make it. It is not a case of the child was not worthy or it was the devils work or not meant to be. **** happens and that's that. To end a perfectly healthy babies life is killing it, instead give it to someone who would look after it and love it like their own.

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Your kidding right. Why should abortion be allowed after rape? Sounds like something Todd Akin would say. :P

 

Because i think you should have the right to choose under those horrific circumstances and i definitely don't agree with religious nutjobs that think all of it is eqiuvalent to murder. They way they push pro life wearing a condom or jerking off is murder. lol

 

Your second question i never said most people view them the same. What i was saying is imo it's not THAT much different as it's still abortion. To me the religious nutjob position is more extreme.

 

My own postion is im sort of on the fence with abortion. Im in agreement that a potential child should have a right to life but at the same time the person having child should have the right do what they want with thier own body especially under certain circumstances like rape' date=' incest or the mother's life is in danger during pregancy. Another thing is you have people like welfare queens popping out babies as a career. Forget abortion for them they should probably be forced to have thier tubes tied and this is coming from someone that's a big time supporter of rights.[/quote']

 

abortion is abortion, even if the baby is out of the womb....its a living breathing human being with no means to defend itself...if thats not murder, then at that point what is?

 

so if i tie someone up and make it to where they cant defend themselves, and kill em can i call that abortion? its the same situation...

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There is no such thing as worthy. In nature animals eat their young' date=' innocent little rabbits get ripped to shreds by wolves. Many wanted pregnancies end prematurely and the baby does not make it. It is not a case of the child was not worthy or it was the devils work or not meant to be. **** happens and that's that. To end a perfectly healthy babies life is killing it, instead give it to someone who would look after it and love it like their own.[/quote']

 

i agree +1

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abortion is abortion' date=' even if the baby is out of the womb....its a living breathing human being with no means to defend itself...if thats not murder, then at that point what is?

 

so if i tie someone up and make it to where they cant defend themselves, and kill em can i call that abortion? its the same situation...[/quote']

 

back in the day, when forums were new & thriving, the most common rebuttal to anyone opposing abortion was to say "if it cant live & fend for itself, then its not really viable, is it?"

 

To which I would promptly reply - so does that go for certain geriatric folks & people with severe medical ailments? :D

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There is no such thing as worthy. In nature animals eat their young' date=' innocent little rabbits get ripped to shreds by wolves. Many wanted pregnancies end prematurely and the baby does not make it. It is not a case of the child was not worthy or it was the devils work or not meant to be. **** happens and that's that. [b']To end a perfectly healthy babies life is killing it, instead give it to someone who would look after it and love it like their own[/b].

 

I agree with the first part but the second idk i just don't like the idea of someone forcing someone else to not have the right to choose what to do with thier own body and life because of some religious or moral code that i can show under certain circumstances is rediculous however at the same time i do see the point that life should have a chance.

 

That's why im on the fence about it but especially so for rape and incest or complications that endanger the mother.

 

abortion is abortion' date=' even if the baby is out of the womb....its a living breathing human being with no means to defend itself...if thats not murder, then at that point what is?

 

so if i tie someone up and make it to where they cant defend themselves, and kill em can i call that abortion? its the same situation...[/quote']

 

That's a fair point but I tell you what if my wife gets pregnant and lets say we found out late somehow and there were complications that threatened her life or the babies guess who im choosing. Not the baby.

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That's a fair point but I tell you what if my wife gets pregnant and lets say we found out late somehow and there were complications that threatened her life or the babies guess who im choosing. Not the baby.

 

dont get me wrong man, that is definatly an situation i would understand, also the situation of rape or incest. Thats what makes this conversation so controversial and so hard to decide...becouse there ARE those strange and bad situations

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@ Stomp - there is actually no documented medical reason that would require a choice between mother and baby. The only medical procedure that even comes close is whats called an ectopic pregnancy' date=' and even then its not meant to abort the baby, though it generally does.[/quote']

 

Yo, what up DL?..

Doesn't have to be a documented medical reason...In cases like rape or incest, the mothers life is definitely at stake. Maybe not in the direct mortal sense. But women who had pregnancy forced upon them are going to have some issues. Some possibility may take it to the point of then even taking their own lives. So I think Stomp still has a point.

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@ Stomp - there is actually no documented medical reason that would require a choice between mother and baby. The only medical procedure that even comes close is whats called an ectopic pregnancy' date=' and even then its not meant to abort the baby, though it generally does.[/quote']

 

That's true to my knowledge except in the case of of things like the mother has a previous health condition like cancer and needing chemotherapy for instance or as Mr. Koboyashi pointed out with mental health.

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Yo' date=' what up DL?..

Doesn't have to be a documented medical case...In cases like rape or incest, the mothers life is definitely at stake. Maybe not in the direct mortal sense. But women who had pregnancy forced upon them are going to have some issues. Some possibility may take it to the point of then even taking their own lives. So I think Stomp still has a point.[/quote']

 

 

 

Hey bud, top of the morning to ya

 

 

I am talking real, actual medical complications - rape & incest are not a "medical condition", if thats what your suggesting, and they certainly are not considered as such when talked about concerning medical conditions.

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That's true to my knowledge except in the case of of things like the mother has a previous health condition like cancer and needing chemotherapy for instance or as Mr. Koboyashi pointed out with mental health.

 

There are work arounds for chemo and mental health does require an abortion, and as such it isnt considered a factor under medical necessity.

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Hey bud' date=' top of the morning to ya

 

 

I am talking real, actual medical complications - rape & incest are not a "medical condition", if thats what your suggesting, and they certainly are not considered as such when talked about concerning medical conditions.[/quote']

 

No, I am not suggesting those are medical conditions. But you cannot deny that the effects of those situations can and do lead to other medical conditions.

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No' date=' I am not suggesting those are medical conditions. But you cannot deny that the effects of those situations can and do lead to other medical conditions.[/quote']

 

No doubt mental concerns are very real from rape & incest. That said, those dont negate the medical necessity, which is often asserted for abortion rights, which I am refuting.

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There are work arounds for chemo and mental health does require an abortion' date=' and as such it isnt considered a factor under medical necessity.[/quote']

 

Like i said before if my wife had cancer and the doctor tells me work around or no chemo is the best bet we're doing the chemo.

 

Im curious what is your position since you really haven't stated it yet.

 

"A - life begins at conception, no exceptions. Meaning, a child conceived by rape or incest has the same right to life as anyone else."

 

Is that your position?^^

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Here it is, people like you trying to make choices for other people. If my sister/mother/girlfriend/random girl was raped, it is completely her call if she wants to have an abortion or wants to keep the kid. It is not up to anyone else to decide this.

 

And to further expand on this... Half the genes going into the baby would be from a man who thinks it's okay to force a women to have sex with him at gun/knife point (or by other physical means). The world doesn't need guys who rape women to procreate, quite the opposite, his gene pool should die with him, that sick and demented bastard.

 

Who the hell are you to tell a women what she can or can't do with her body? No person can make that call aside from the women in question. I don't think she should keep the baby, but I'm not going to force her to have an abortion.........

 

Where do some of your people come from? :/

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Like i said before if my wife had cancer and the doctor tells me chemo is the best bet we're doing the chemo.

 

Im curious what is your position since you really haven't stated it yet.

 

"A - life begins at conception' date=' no exceptions. Meaning, a child conceived by rape or incest has the same right to life as anyone else[/i']."

 

Is that your position?^^

 

Except no doctor would ever say that because its simply not true. There isnt a single medical condition of any sort that requires choosing between mother and baby.

 

Yes, A, though I wasnt always that way. for the longest time I too agreed rape & incest should be exceptions, but then when faced with trying to explain what the difference is between any other child vs one conceived via rape or incest, I realized it has no affect on the baby, only the mother would make any such exception. And as such, its not based on principle but rather preference.

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Here it is' date=' people like you trying to make choices for other people. If my sister/mother/girlfriend/random girl was raped, it is completely her call if she wants to have an abortion or wants to keep the kid. It is not up to anyone else to decide this.

 

And to further expand on this... Half the genes going into the baby would be from a man who thinks it's okay to force a women to have sex with him at gun/knife point (or by other physical means). The world doesn't need guys who rape women to procreate, quite the opposite, his gene pool should die with him, that sick and demented bastard.

 

Who the hell are you to tell a women what she can or can't do with her body? No person can make that call aside from the women in question. I don't think she should keep the baby, but I'm not going to force her to have an abortion.........

 

Where do some of your people come from? :/[/quote']

 

Totally agree.

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No doubt mental concerns are very real from rape & incest. That said' date=' those dont negate the medical necessity, which is often asserted for abortion rights, which I am refuting.[/quote']

 

You're being technical over something that is not a simple technical issue here. This is a human issue. Just because it is not written in a medical book somewhere doesn't mean it can't be considered.

Ask a rape victim if she feels it is a necessity. Would you throw the book at her and tell her to deal with it?

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Except no doctor would ever say that because its simply not true. There isnt a single medical condition of any sort that requires choosing between mother and baby.

 

Yes' date=' A, though I wasnt always that way. for the longest time I too agreed rape & incest should be exceptions, but then when faced with trying to explain what the difference is between any other child vs one conceived via rape or incest, I realized it has no affect on the baby, only the mother would make any such exception. And as such, its not based on principle but rather preference.[/quote']

 

Totally agree.

 

Ok, and I could just as easily say there are also people like you who think abortion is merely a form of birth control and that women should be able to get them done at the drive through along with a dt coke & order order of onion rings while they wait :cool:

 

 

 

 

so much for a reasonable, fair conversation... :rolleyes:

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You're being technical over something that is not a simple technical issue here. This is a human issue. Just because it is not written in a medical book somewhere doesn't mean it can't be considered.

Ask a rape victim if she feels it is a necessity. Would you throw the book at her and tell her to deal with it?

 

While there certainly is a human element to be considered - and it certainly deserves more consideration than it gets (from both sides) - were not talking about "how you feel" in determining viability of life; were talking facts & science.

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I wonder if these rightwing hardliners would be singing the same toon if it was their significant other who was raped. Going full term with that child would be a constant reminder of a horrible, traumatic event. That situation would have serious implications on just about all aspects of your and the mothers life.

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Except no doctor would ever say that because its simply not true. There isnt a single medical condition of any sort that requires choosing between mother and baby..

 

So there is no case ever of a person that has cancer or leukemia etc. and is pregnant and needs chemo for a better chance to survive? Ofcourse there has.

 

Yes' date=' A, though I wasnt always that way. for the longest time I too agreed rape & incest should be exceptions, but then when faced with trying to explain what the difference is between any other child vs one conceived via rape or incest, I realized it has no affect on the baby, only the mother would make any such exception. And as such, its not based on principle but rather preference.[/quote']

 

So you support bombing defenseless civilians in other countries or Libya it's ok to go in and if a few civilvians get taken out in the crossfire knowing they will it's ok but as a soon as an egg is fertilized and aborted that person and the doctors are murderous scoundrels. Pot meet kettle.

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I'm curious as to your response......

 

Here it is, people like you trying to make choices for other people. If my sister/mother/girlfriend/random girl was raped, it is completely her call if she wants to have an abortion or wants to keep the kid. It is not up to anyone else to decide this.

 

And to further expand on this... Half the genes going into the baby would be from a man who thinks it's okay to force a women to have sex with him at gun/knife point (or by other physical means). The world doesn't need guys who rape women to procreate, quite the opposite, his gene pool should die with him, that sick and demented bastard.

 

Who the hell are you to tell a women what she can or can't do with her body? No person can make that call aside from the women in question. I don't think she should keep the baby, but I'm not going to force her to have an abortion.........

 

Where do some of your people come from? :/

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Ok' date=' and I could just as easily say there are also people like you who think abortion is merely a form of birth control and that women should be able to get them done at the drive through along with a dt coke & order order of onion rings while they wait :cool:

 

 

 

 

so much for a reasonable, fair conversation... :rolleyes:[/quote']

 

I've shown i can be reasonable. I said before im more on the fence about it. I can see points to both sides.

 

I just think your position is far too absolutist and therfore a little rediculous under some circumstances.

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While there certainly is a human element to be considered - and it certainly deserves more consideration than it gets (from both sides) - were not talking about "how you feel" in determining viability of life; were talking facts & science.

 

So you would throw the book at her and tell her to deal with it then...

This amazes me...

So even though you are fully aware of the devastating effects of a rape, you are willing to tell these women **** happens, deal with it...Just because it is not written down?!!!

Facts and science don't have to be written down either DL. There are just some basic things that MOST people understand about the way other humans work. I don't have to be a doctor or read a book to know the ill effects those situations lead to. But apparently you do have to have it so black and white, which I am sorry to say makes you one cold son of a *****.

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So there is no case ever of a person that has cancer or leukemia etc. and is pregnant and needs chemo for a better chance to survive? Ofcourse there has.

 

 

 

So you support bombing defensless civilians in other countries or Libya it's ok to go in and if a few civilvians get taken out in the crossfire knowing they will it's ok but as a soon as an egg is fertilized and aborted that person and the doctors are murderous scoundrels. Pot meet kettle.

 

But... But... But, they're Muslims not people so its ok to kill them. There is some seriously ****ed up view points coming out of the rightwing these days.

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So there is no case ever of a person that has cancer or leukemia etc. and is pregnant and needs chemo for a better chance to survive? Ofcourse there has.

 

Link to any situation where a mother has been required to choose when it was known there was another option? when my wife was preggy with our first' date=' her primary dr wasnt available a time or two, and she ended up seeing the dr who handles pretty much all high risk pregnancies in ky, and I asked him about this and he made it unequivocally clear that there is no scenario he has heard of that requires a choice. [/b']

 

So you support bombing defensless civilians in other countries or Libya it's ok to go in and if a few civilvians get taken out in the crossfire knowing they will it's ko but as a soon as an egg is fertilized and aborted that person and the doctors are murderous scoundrels. Pot meet kettle.

 

 

mmmhhhmmm..figured it was only a matter of time before some went full retard. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

I'm curious as to your response......

 

Here it is' date=' people like you trying to make choices for other people. If my sister/mother/girlfriend/random girl was raped, it is completely her call if she wants to have an abortion or wants to keep the kid. It is not up to anyone else to decide this.

 

And to further expand on this... Half the genes going into the baby would be from a man who thinks it's okay to force a women to have sex with him at gun/knife point (or by other physical means). The world doesn't need guys who rape women to procreate, quite the opposite, his gene pool should die with him, that sick and demented bastard.

 

Who the hell are you to tell a women what she can or can't do with her body? No person can make that call aside from the women in question. I don't think she should keep the baby, but I'm not going to force her to have an abortion.........

 

Where do some of your people come from? :/[/quote']

 

we come from the land of the endless crusades, where the church is white and so are all of its people....it is our destiny to create a right wing utopia of endless babies and no more taxes.

 

 

 

Sound about right? :D

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So you would throw the book at her and tell her to deal with it then...

This amazes me...

So even though you are fully aware of the devastating effects of a rape' date=' you are willing to tell these women **** happens, deal with it...Just because it is not written down?!!!

Facts and science don't have to be written down either DL. There are just some basic things that MOST people understand about the way other humans work. I don't have to be a doctor or read a book to know the ill effects those situations lead too. But apparently you do, which I am sorry to say makes you one cold son of a *****.[/quote']

 

It seems your letting your emotion get the better of you and thus you are jumping to conclusions and making some really creepy assumptions. If you wish to proceed on this path, that is of course your choice, but then youll be on my ignore list, and in good company with the rest who are unable to carry an adult conversation...

 

You seem like an alright guy, and very passionate, which I respect and admire; just ease up and take a breath pal :)

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mmmhhhmmm..figured it was only a matter of time before some went full retard. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

we come from the land of the endless crusades' date=' where the church is white and so are all of its people....it is our destiny to create a right wing utopia of endless babies and no more taxes.

 

 

 

Sound about right? :D[/quote']

 

It sounds like your a nut job, so yea it sounds about right to me. Or your a troll just messing with people. Either way you didn't even respond to what I said, you said some political/religious nonsense that had nothing to do with what I said.

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I've shown i can be reasonable. I said before im more on the fence about it. I can see points to both sides.

 

I just think your position is far too absolutist and therfore a little rediculous under some circumstances.

 

I dont care one bit if you disagree with me all day, thats not my concern. But, you echoed the sentiments of someone who is not exactly expressing something that resembles civility or sincere reason.

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It seems your letting your emotion get the better of you and thus you are jumping to conclusions and making some really creepy assumptions. If you wish to proceed on this path' date=' that is of course your choice, but then youll be on my ignore list, and in good company with the rest who are unable to carry an adult conversation...

 

You seem like an alright guy, and very passionate, which I respect and admire; just ease up and take a breath pal :)[/quote']

 

Way to dodge everything that i presented to you.

 

And you say I am the one who can't have an adult conversation :rolleyes:

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This is something I've always struggled with, I can see both sides of the argument clearly.

 

I do think that in the case of rape/incest/etc a woman shouldn't be forced to carry to term. I also think that the time frame in which that option is on the table should be pretty damn short. I understand that there are a lot of problems with that "argument" - I understand where the people who think life begins at conception are coming from & I also understand the people who don't consider it anything more than a few cells at first.

 

I think partial birth abortion is f'd up & I can't understand why anyone would abort once the fetus has a decent chance of surviving if born, as long as there is no real risk to the mother.

 

There are good arguments on both sides of this issue. I think there should be a relatively small window of time in which abortion is an option, although I understand it's hard to determine at what point it should no longer be an option.

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It sounds like your a nut job' date=' so yea it sounds about right to me. Or your a troll just messing with people. Either way you didn't even respond to what I said, you said some political/religious nonsense that had nothing to do with what I said.[/quote']

 

thats because what you said wasnt worth responding to. Sorry pal, but your off your leash and as such I have no desire to indulge your impulsive, hateful demeanor.

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mmmhhhmmm..figured it was only a matter of time before some went full retard. :rolleyes:

 

Link to any situation where a mother has been required to choose when it was known there was another option? when my wife was preggy with our first' date=' her primary dr wasnt available a time or two, and she ended up seeing the dr who handles pretty much all high risk pregnancies in ky, and I asked him about this and he made it unequivocally clear that there is no scenario he has heard of that requires a choice.

[/quote']

 

You misunderstand what im saying.

 

Here is what im saying.

 

Mother+Cancer+Pregnancy

 

Chemo=Mother chance to survive

 

No Chemo=Both dead.

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Ha! DL4 put his dancing shoes on quick, didn't he Stomp? So let me get this straight...

 

Forceful rape> have to have baby because its God's will

 

In vitro fertilization> not ok because its not the natural order of life

 

Bombing women and children> ok because we are protecting our own

 

Abortion> not ok because life begins at conception

 

Who's going full retard again?

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Ha! DL4 put his dancing shoes on quick' date=' didn't he Stomp? So let me get this straight...

 

Forceful rape> have to have baby because its God's will

 

In vitro fertilization> not ok because its not the natural order of life

 

Bombing women and children> ok because we are protecting our own

 

Abortion> not ok because life begins at conception

 

Who's going full retard again?[/quote']

 

Im amazed anyone actually reads what he posts anymore..... everyone in this forum at one point has shown what a hack he is

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Ahhhhaaahhhaha. So you are a troll. I get it now. I didn't think anyone could actually believe the bs that spews from your mouth (figure of speech-since we are on the internet).

 

If I saw you on the street' date=' I wouldn't be the bigger man and walk away. I would break your neck for trying to rape my women and force them to keep the kid.

 

You sick bastard.[/quote']

 

 

reported...enjoy your time off :)

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Come at me without personal attacks and we can talk (and disagree!!) all day long - but since you opted to lace your post with them - I am by no means inclined to respond. Deal with it.

 

If what he said is considered an insult to you, you need to either A) get some thicker skin, or B) stay away from the internet because you're entirely too sensitive to have a discussion with differing view points.

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I dont care one bit if you disagree with me all day' date=' thats not my concern. But, you echoed the sentiments of someone who is not exactly expressing something that resembles civility or sincere reason.[/quote']

 

That's fine. I wasn't necessarily agreeing with the "Where do some of your people come from? :/" part:D That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it just as i am to mine.

 

I disagree and agreed with the sentiment of his post about it being completely rediculous to expect the mother to carry the term for rape and incest.

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If what he said is considered an insult to you' date=' you need to either A) get some thicker skin, or B) stay away from the internet because you're entirely too sensitive to have a discussion with differing view points.[/quote']

 

Lol' date='translation: I'm not making any head way with my radical ideologies so I'm taking my ball and going home.[/quote']

 

^^^^

These.

 

Sorry DL, you seem to be losing your cool a bit. It is showing.

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