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Well-roundedness is the new key to winning fights


Sisti

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We all know Demian Maia is amazing on the ground, Cerrone is a great striker, Cormier is great at wrestling, etc. However, even though Maia is better on the ground than A. Silva, he really had no chance of beating him.

 

I realized that MMA has changed and it's all about "your only as strong as your weakest link." 5-10 years ago a guy like demian maia could have been champ because he would just get people to the ground and beat everyone there. Now it's all about studying your opponent and taking the fight to their weakness

 

The best guys are the most well-rounded. GSP is a perfect example...A- in striking, A- in jiu-jitsu, and A in wrestling...he really has no one area he's better than the rest

 

Jones is another great example...A in striking, A- in jiu-jitsu, A in wrestling

 

With their being so much knowledge of everyone and what they are good at...you are only as good as your weakest skill is...in other words, a guy who has a B in any one area of fighting couldn't be champ because a fighter would just take the fight to that area and beat them at that game

 

Just kind of an observation that I noticed in the last few years in MMA. Guys like GSP or Jones stay champ because there is no one area that MMA fighters could go to and say I could easily take him out there

 

Someone like Roger Gracie would have a hard time being champ because there's so much knowledge on his sick jiu-jitsu that a great striker would always beat him

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to an extent

 

Imho its being an A+ in one thing and getting everything up to at least B level to compliment the A+

 

 

JDS is A+ boxing style with B lvl takedown defense and B lvl submission defence

 

Anderson A+ muay thai with thr same thing

 

GSP has A+ physical traits with B+ wrestling with B- striking and bjj

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lol jones with an A in BJJ

and there have been many one dimentional fighters being champs

 

2nd person ever to sub rampage in his pro career (including a flying triangle attempt) not to mention subbing a BJJ blackbelt in Vitor Belfort. Controlled BJJ blackbelt shogun on the ground. Even If hes not black belt hes doing pretty well

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2nd person ever to sub rampage in his pro career (including a flying triangle attempt) not to mention subbing a BJJ blackbelt in Vitor Belfort. Controlled BJJ blackbelt shogun on the ground. Even If hes not black belt hes doing pretty well

 

C'mon man, you know logic gets you nowhere on these forums! You gotta be a blind hater, or a blind **** to get attention around here.

 

For the record, Jones obviously has a solid ground/submission game, but the haters will refuse to acknowledge it. Just like he has an A+ striking game, but the haters will refuse to acknowledge it.

 

For the record II, I wish someone would knock the teeth out of Jon Jones.

 

The only reason I can't wait for him to go up to HW and start whooping *** there is to watch the butthurt on the forums grow to EPIC proportions. When Dana wraps the HW strap around his wait the forums might explode with butthurt.

 

I'm at least resonable enough to accept that he's one of the best fighters on earth, he's making weight with no issues, it's not up to him to fight short, it's up to his opponents to learn to deal with his length, and when he goes up in weight, he's likely to get bulk up properly, and his athleticism combined with his size, reach, fighting intelligence and growing skill level doesn't bode well for the HW division.

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2nd person ever to sub rampage in his pro career (including a flying triangle attempt) not to mention subbing a BJJ blackbelt in Vitor Belfort. Controlled BJJ blackbelt shogun on the ground. Even If hes not black belt hes doing pretty well

 

1. lolz really? that triangle was crap and page practically gave him the RNC

2. with a sub that is based on pure strength not mainly technique(hes the stronger oppenent, hes a HW)

3. again size is all that matters for him

 

no, his JJ is untested and got caught it a armbar like a nub and ddnt defend it with technique, he used his size/strength to get out...i even know to stack on the guy if you got an armbar on you...

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1. lolz really? that triangle was crap and page practically gave him the RNC

2. with a sub that is based on pure strength not mainly technique(hes the stronger oppenent' date=' hes a HW)

3. again size is all that matters for him

 

no, his JJ is untested and got caught it a armbar like a nub and ddnt defend it with technique, he used his size/strength to get out...i even know to stack on the guy if you got an armbar on you...[/quote']

 

see the problem with that is people forget jon jones is the WORLD CHAMP. you don't get to be the world champ without being incredibly good at EVERYTHING. also, keep in mind that it's MMA jiu-jitsu meaning it's how well you could apply jiu-jitsu to an MMA situation. Jones is able to avoid submissions and execute submissions in an MMA match, which makes him pretty ****in good. you don't become the dominant world champ without being incredibly skilled.

 

i don't think anyone's arguing that his jiu-jitsu is the best in the division or that it's not his weakness, but it's still pretty decent considering how many submission wins he has gotten over top opponents

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1. lolz really? that triangle was crap and page practically gave him the RNC

2. with a sub that is based on pure strength not mainly technique(hes the stronger oppenent' date=' hes a HW)

3. again size is all that matters for him

 

no, his JJ is untested and got caught it a armbar like a nub and ddnt defend it with technique, he used his size/strength to get out...i even know to stack on the guy if you got an armbar on you...[/quote']

 

Wow, you're in denial.

 

Strength playing the important role in technique? In case you weren't aware, BJJ is not about strength but about technique. You obviously don't take classes.

 

I constantly submit people stronger and bigger than me whereas they cannot submit me.

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1. lolz really? that triangle was crap and page practically gave him the RNC

2. with a sub that is based on pure strength not mainly technique(hes the stronger oppenent' date=' hes a HW)

3. again size is all that matters for him

 

no, his JJ is untested and got caught it a armbar like a nub and ddnt defend it with technique, he used his size/strength to get out...i even know to stack on the guy if you got an armbar on you...[/quote']

 

 

Again, he didn't use size and strength to get out of the armbar. The armbar is technique. If applied correctly, you don't get out. Jones arm did not break in half, the armbar was not fully sunk in but it was close.

 

Not fully sunk in = you can get out.

 

Go take more classes kid.

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see the problem with that is people forget jon jones is the WORLD CHAMP. you don't get to be the world champ without being incredibly good at EVERYTHING. also' date=' keep in mind that it's MMA jiu-jitsu meaning it's how well you could apply jiu-jitsu to an MMA situation. Jones is able to avoid submissions and execute submissions in an MMA match, which makes him pretty ****in good. you don't become the dominant world champ without being incredibly skilled.

 

i don't think anyone's arguing that his jiu-jitsu is the best in the division or that it's not his weakness, but it's still pretty decent considering how many submission wins he has gotten over top opponents[/quote']

 

we have never seen him on his back so we dnt know his bottom game, and when hes on top hes never faced a good top game BJJ black belt...so theres no way to say this....this is an assumption...hes subbed 4 guys, TJ w/e his name is, bader whos like a dead fish on his back,rampage who isnt good off his back, and vitor not good off his back and still ripped jones' arm...not so hot IMO

 

hes mainly sucessful cuz of his huge size advantage...anyone who says otherwise is blind...

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we have never seen him on his back so we dnt know his bottom game' date=' and when hes on top hes never faced a good top game BJJ black belt...so theres no way to say this....this is an assumption...hes subbed 4 guys, TJ w/e his name is, bader whos like a dead fish on his back,rampage who isnt good off his back, and vitor not good off his back and still ripped jones' arm...not so hot IMO

 

hes mainly sucessful cuz of his huge size advantage...anyone who says otherwise is blind...[/quote']

 

You also forgot he submitted Lyoto Machida, another black belt.

 

Go take some more classes kid.

 

And go watch some more fights. Your arguments are full of hatred. You'd make Darth Vader proud.

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Again' date=' he didn't use size and strength to get out of the armbar. The armbar is technique. If applied correctly, you don't get out. Jones arm did not break in half, the armbar was not fully sunk in but it was close.

 

Not fully sunk in = you can get out.

 

Go take more classes kid.[/quote']

 

he stood up and tried shaking vitor off, and then spiked him on the mat(illegal, but different discussion)...he did it again and becouse he can hold him and hes so tall, vitor lost his grip...did you even watch the fight?:confused:

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And go watch some more fights. Your arguments are full of hatred. You'd make Darth Vader proud.

 

That's the problem...people just debate these things out of hatred/fanboyism and work from there. What's the point of arguing with someone if they 100% support the fighters they like and 100% don't support the fighters they don't. None of these people know you lol so just take it for what it is

 

Giving Jones an A- in jiu-jitsu is pretty accurate. He's an extremely dominant champ in a stacked division that only ALMOST got submitted once...that's pretty good

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he stood up and tried shaking vitor off' date=' and then spiked him on the mat(illegal, but different discussion)...he did it again and becouse he can hold him and hes so tall, vitor lost his grip...did you even watch the fight?:confused:[/quote']

 

He lost his grip because the armbar was not fully in.

 

Do you even know the proper technique or do you just go off what Joe Rogan says?

 

If the armbar was completely in, the arm would have been broken and the fight ended.

 

Again, go take some classes before you try to make a debate about BJJ.

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That's the problem...people just debate these things out of hatred/fanboyism and work from there. What's the point of arguing with someone if they 100% support the fighters they like and 100% don't support the fighters they don't. None of these people know you lol so just take it for what it is

 

Giving Jones an A- in jiu-jitsu is pretty accurate. He's an extremely dominant champ in a stacked division that only ALMOST got submitted once...that's pretty good

 

agree with top part

 

disagree with bottom. Id say he's B to B+. imo staying on top and smashing elbows isnt bjj. Guys with A lvl bjj is like bj penn or nogueira or those types and you can not lob jones in there with them. Then A+ would be maia jacare werdum pezao types

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That's the problem...people just debate these things out of hatred/fanboyism and work from there. What's the point of arguing with someone if they 100% support the fighters they like and 100% don't support the fighters they don't. None of these people know you lol so just take it for what it is

 

Giving Jones an A- in jiu-jitsu is pretty accurate. He's an extremely dominant champ in a stacked division that only ALMOST got submitted once...that's pretty good

 

Exactly, that is the problem with some of these posters. Blind Hatred and refusal to admit when a fighter they hate is good.

 

If you took away the name Jones and said "I want to tell you about a fighter who submitted two Brazialian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belts, and submitted a guy who had only been submitted once in 40 fights, and has never been submitted himself, would you say he is good at those submissions?"

 

99.99% of people would say yes. When you reveal the name Jon Jones then the number goes down. It's dumb.

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agree with top part

 

disagree with bottom. Id say he's B to B+. imo staying on top and smashing elbows isnt bjj. Guys with A lvl bjj is like bj penn or nogueira or those types and you can not lob jones in there with them. Then A+ would be maia jacare werdum pezao types

 

B+ I agree with...I just happen to be of the philosophy that if you are the champ you are amazing at every level. It's just MMA now, it's not 3 separate rounds where you have 1 round wrestling, 1 jiu-jitsu, and 1 striking. So for me it's hard to accept that the guy who is dominating everyone is so much worse when no one at that division has been able to submit him. And you can't deny that he submitted a black belt (machida)

 

One last thing...people would also tend to say Shogun was a way better striker than Jones, but we saw how the striking went in that match...

 

No doubt, Jones weakness is jiu-jitsu but he is freakishly good at MMA and that's one aspect of MMA. So I could definitely say he may be B+ level, but to be the champ in this day and age you have to be good at everything

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Exactly' date=' that is the problem with some of these posters. Blind Hatred and refusal to admit when a fighter they hate is good.

 

If you took away the name Jones and said "I want to tell you about a fighter who submitted two Brazialian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belts, and submitted a guy who had only been submitted once in 40 fights, and has never been submitted himself, would you say he is good at those submissions?"

 

99.99% of people would say yes. When you reveal the name Jon Jones then the number goes down. It's dumb.[/quote']

 

you CANNOT simply say by submitting two black belts that it makes him that great on bjj because its not just a bjj match.

 

Cole Miller at a purple belt tapped out Jorge Gurgel who is a black belt, does that mean he is a A lvl bjj player?

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agree with top part

 

disagree with bottom. Id say he's B to B+. imo staying on top and smashing elbows isnt bjj. Guys with A lvl bjj is like bj penn or nogueira or those types and you can not lob jones in there with them. Then A+ would be maia jacare werdum pezao types

 

I can agree to this if you are classifying it at this level.

 

But I believe the poster was going more with an overall A for a fighter if they have demonstrated they can handle and beat BJJ artists at their own game in which he did.

 

Look, if you say Anderson Silva has an A+ in Muay Thai, and another fighter beats him using Muay Thai, would you not give that fighter a better ranking at Muay Thai than Silva? It only makes sense.

 

Jones has submitted A level BJJ fighters. He should automatically get this rank because of the situation I just stated above about Muay Thai.

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If you took away the name Jones and said "I want to tell you about a fighter who submitted two Brazialian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belts' date=' and submitted a guy who had only been submitted once in 40 fights, and has never been submitted himself, would you say he is good at those submissions?"

 

99.99% of people would say yes. When you reveal the name Jon Jones then the number goes down. It's dumb.[/quote']

 

lol

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B+ I agree with...I just happen to be of the philosophy that if you are the champ you are amazing at every level. It's just MMA now' date=' it's not 3 separate rounds where you have 1 round wrestling, 1 jiu-jitsu, and 1 striking. So for me it's hard to accept that the guy who is dominating everyone is so much worse when no one at that division has been able to submit him. And you can't deny that he submitted a black belt (machida)

 

One last thing...people would also tend to say Shogun was a way better striker than Jones, but we saw how the striking went in that match...

 

No doubt, Jones weakness is jiu-jitsu but he is freakishly good at MMA and that's one aspect of MMA. So I could definitely say he may be B+ level, but to be the champ in this day and age you have to be good at everything[/quote']

 

B+ sounds right

 

you have to look at it this way. Who would you be more afraid of breaking a limb or choking you out on the ground Pezao or Jones? Pezao of course. Jones you to need to worry about him dropping elbows on you

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I think the problem is also a lot of people think that you need to be a black belt to be the best. That's just a belt system and you would think that if you became the PROVEN champ of the world where jiu-jitsu is a huge part of your craft you would automatically be considered for a black belt.

 

The same goes with Jones' striking...he doesn't have some amazing K-1 pedigree, but the fact is that he beat Shogun in striking

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I can agree to this if you are classifying it at this level.

 

But I believe the poster was going more with an overall A for a fighter if they have demonstrated they can handle and beat BJJ artists at their own game in which he did.

 

Look' date=' if you say Anderson Silva has an A+ in Muay Thai, and another fighter beats him using Muay Thai, would you not give that fighter a better ranking at Muay Thai than Silva? It only makes sense.

 

Jones has submitted A level BJJ fighters. He should automatically get this rank because of the situation I just stated above about Muay Thai.[/quote']

 

depends on how he loses in the stand up. Like Machida was more worried about not being on the ground of fear of gnp when he got caught. Rampage was worn out from the all around beating that the rnc came alot easier

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you CANNOT simply say by submitting two black belts that it makes him that great on bjj because its not just a bjj match.

 

Cole Miller at a purple belt tapped out Jorge Gurgel who is a black belt' date=' does that mean he is a A lvl bjj player?[/quote']

 

 

Yes you can if they do it dominantly and don't just freakishly catch them.

 

What Jones did to Vitor was A+ BJJ stuff. He did the technique perfectly and even the commentators who know BJJ said that. All the technique he has shown on submissions have been A+. You cannot deny that.

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He lost his grip because the armbar was not fully in.

 

Do you even know the proper technique or do you just go off what Joe Rogan says?

 

If the armbar was completely in' date=' the arm would have been broken and the fight ended.

 

Again, go take some classes before you try to make a debate about BJJ.[/quote']

 

did i say it was fully in?

he lost his grip for a variaty of reasons but in that situation any normal LHW fighter(not oversized) would probably have gotten caught and finished/tapped...

 

yes i know proper technique, i have trained BJJ

 

again, i ddnt say it was fully in

 

you need to learn to just speak to someone and not be an *******.. im not being offensive and your starting to for no reason.

 

just cuz u disagree with my statements doesnt make it ok to go full ****** mode

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did i say it was fully in?

he lost his grip for a variaty of reasons but in that situation any normal LHW fighter(not oversized) would probably have gotten caught and finished/tapped...

 

yes i know proper technique' date=' i have trained BJJ

 

again, i ddnt say it was fully in

 

you need to learn to just speak to someone and not be an *******.. im not being offensive and your starting to for no reason.

 

just cuz u disagree with my statements doesnt make it ok to go full ****** mode[/quote']

 

Stop going all 11 on us.

 

Rustled much?

 

You stated Jones used power and strength to win against BJJ when in fact he uses technique.

 

You were implying that he got out of the armbar because of strength, but he got out because Vitor's technique wasn't good enough.

 

Jones technique against him with the Americana was flawless.

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Yes you can if they do it dominantly and don't just freakishly catch them.

 

What Jones did to Vitor was A+ BJJ stuff. He did the technique perfectly and even the commentators who know BJJ said that. All the technique he has shown on submissions have been A+. You cannot deny that.

 

actually i can bc he got there bc of his gnp not his bjj and a keylock is basic. Watch maia jacare pezao to see what top level bjj is like

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actually i can bc he got there bc of his gnp not his bjj and a keylock is basic. Watch maia jacare pezao to see what top level bjj is like

 

I'm not saying JJ has top level BJJ at all. We simply do not know.

 

BUT we can give him an A in BJJ because he hasn't been submitted and he submits top level guys and submits guys that other people couldn't submit.

 

I guess the question is, "Is there a certain number of fighters that are only allowed to have an A?"

 

If that is the case then yes, maybe he only gets a B because we only want 10 people in the A bracket.

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2nd person ever to sub rampage in his pro career (including a flying triangle attempt) not to mention subbing a BJJ blackbelt in Vitor Belfort. Controlled BJJ blackbelt shogun on the ground. Even If hes not black belt hes doing pretty well

 

You forgot the Public Hanging submission of Blackbelt Lyoto Machida

 

jones_machida_ufc_140.jpg

 

machida.jpg

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I think this could go back and forth' date=' but we all agree Jones jiu-jitsu is somewhere between good and very good lol[/quote']

 

I can agree to that decision.

 

I would like to see an actual ground battle with someone like Maia though or if Jones pulls off some sick submission.

 

Let's be realistic though, if Jones had pulled off that flying triangle attempt, there would be no doubt.

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I'm not saying JJ has top level BJJ at all. We simply do not know.

 

BUT we can give him an A in BJJ because he hasn't been submitted and he submits top level guys and submits guys that other people couldn't submit.

 

I guess the question is' date=' "Is there a certain number of fighters that are only allowed to have an A?"

 

If that is the case then yes, maybe he only gets a B because we only want 10 people in the A bracket.[/quote']

 

again just because he submitted some guys doesnt make him a top lvl bjj guus BECAUSE HE DIDNT GET IT THERE USING HIS BJJ. Thats like saying Chris Leben or Jeremy Stephen should be put into the Anderson Silva level of striking because they were able to ko some strikers There technique is very basic as is Duck ducks bjj

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again just because he submitted some guys doesnt make him a top lvl bjj guus BECAUSE HE DIDNT GET IT THERE USING HIS BJJ. Thats like saying Chris Leben or Jeremy Stephen should be put into the Anderson Silva level of striking because they were able to ko some strikers There technique is very basic as is Duck ducks bjj

 

If leben would have KO'd Silva everyone and anyone would have Leben has an A level striker. Let's be honest here.

 

The first person to KO Anderson Silva will get recognized as a great striker with A level striking.

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If leben would have KO'd Silva everyone and anyone would have Leben has an A level striker. Let's be honest here.

 

The first person to KO Anderson Silva will get recognized as a great striker with A level striking.

 

i wouldnt and no one with any sense of striking would just like anyone with a sense of bjj know duck duck isnt that great in bjj

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