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If the biblical God exists...

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What would be your response?

 

If Jesus is who he claimed' date=' how does it effect you?

 

Civil discussion sought pls.

Peace and love.[/quote']

 

Honestly, I don't know...

 

I know the Christians on here probably think I try to start trouble with the things I post (which are mostly just questions), but I have HUGE problems with a lot of what is written in the bible. Really, if you look at the bible objectively, point blank the biblical god did some really evil things that can't just be swept under the rug. So it becomes a matter of do I devote my life to something that has killed more living things than any man ever has, just because he is my creator?

 

I wrestle with this stuff in my head all the time. I honestly don't think any of this stuff is real, but there is a part of my brain that realizes I could be very wrong and that I'm gambling with an eternity of torture. In the end, I'm a good man at heart and to me that is all that really matters. Why should it matter that I also have to accept something written in a book as truth, especially as contradictory at that book is?

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Honestly' date=' I don't know...

 

I know the Christians on here probably think I try to start trouble with the things I post (which are mostly just questions), but I have HUGE problems with a lot of what is written in the bible. Really, if you look at the bible objectively, point blank the biblical god did some really evil things that can't just be swept under the rug. So it becomes a matter of do I devote my life to something that has killed more living things than any man ever has, just because he is my creator?

 

I wrestle with this stuff in my head all the time. I honestly don't think any of this stuff is real, but there is a part of my brain that realizes I could be very wrong and that I'm gambling with an eternity of torture. In the end, I'm a good man at heart and to me that is all that really matters. Why should it matter that I also have to accept something written in a book as truth, especially as contradictory at that book is?[/quote']

 

I admire and respect your honesty here.

 

These things you are calling evil, I would agree, are great evils, and terrible things.

One may also consider that what we consider to be evil or terrible is justice in God's eyes, or perhaps just him being the potter over the clay, and our minds can't get wrapped around it. I struggle with as well with those tough issues scripture espouses and God as he is witnessed in scripture. I do understand that wrestling with these things.

 

I'm sure you are a good man Chons, but the scripture says in relation to the holy God of scripture, you and I aren't meeting the necessary standard that God requires, as it explicitly points out our sin problems as humans. This also is a struggle.

 

Regarding the "torture" thing, the scripture never says this, it's torment, which is different. It's being separated from peace, love, and things that are good and holy, which is from God, and getting what we want on earth, which is no God. The book declares an eternity apart from God, where the body doesn't die and the teeth of those in that eternity gnash with regret for not acknowledging the existence of God or his commands, but instead lived for self apart from God for their time on earth.

 

No preaching, just relaying what scripture teaches to make sure we're aligning our conversation around the God of scripture.

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Then that's all well and good but it still wouldn't prove the bible to be a legitimate document; it might surprise a few but logically, in order for there to be a creation there must have been a creator. now who or what that creator was none of us can even attempt to grasp or have the foggiest idea of...

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I admire and respect your honesty here.

 

These things you are calling evil' date=' I would agree, are great evils, and terrible things.

One may also consider that what we consider to be evil or terrible is justice in God's eyes, or perhaps just him being the potter over the clay, and our minds can't get wrapped around it. I struggle with as well with those tough issues scripture espouses and God as he is witnessed in scripture. I do understand that wrestling with these things.

 

I'm sure you are a good man Chons, but the scripture says in relation to the holy God of scripture, you and I aren't meeting the necessary standard that God requires, as it explicitly points out our sin problems as humans. This also is a struggle.

 

Regarding the "torture" thing, the scripture never says this, it's torment, which is different. It's being separated from peace, love, and things that are good and holy, which is from God, and getting what we want on earth, which is no God. The book declares an eternity apart from God, where the body doesn't die and the teeth of those in that eternity gnash with regret for not acknowledging the existence of God or his commands, but instead lived for self apart from God for their time on earth.

 

No preaching, just relaying what scripture teaches to make sure we're aligning our conversation around the God of scripture.[/quote']

 

But the scripture does say this...

 

Revelations 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars?they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

 

Fiery lake of burning sulfur sounds like torture to me.

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I believe God had no idea how hard it is to be human before Jesus,it was Jesus who opened Gods eyes to the suffering of man & thats why God gave Jesus dominion over earth..Just my opinion though..

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I believe God had no idea how hard it is to be human before Jesus' date='it was Jesus who opened Gods eyes to the suffering of man & thats why God gave Jesus dominion over earth..Just my opinion though..[/quote']

 

Some of the things you say about your faith blow my mind, in a good way. You seem like a very open minded individual. :)

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But the scripture does say this...

 

Revelations 21:8

 

 

Fiery lake of burning sulfur sounds like torture to me.

 

Perhaps that is not meant to be taken literally, but figuratively, meaning the anguish will be like that of being in a lake of fire, burning with brimstone and sulfur.

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Perhaps that is not meant to be taken literally' date=' but figuratively, meaning the anguish will be like that of being in a lake of fire, burning with brimstone and sulfur.[/quote']

 

This is another problem I have with the Bible and Christians. Seems only the parts that are nice, sweet, loving and speak of eternal life tend to be taken literally. Everything else is touch and go.

 

It ends up just being the interpreters version as opposed to Gods version. And this is how you get all the different sects and denoms. The baptists and pentecostals take all the holy spirit and tongues scriptures literally, the lutherans take tithing really ****ing serious, the "non denoms" make it fluffy and mainstream, the catholics take repentance really seriously, and then you got the west boro baptist church who actually believe in the literal words of the whole bible.

 

Its a ****ING CLUSTER ****. Its chaos. And every single sect claims they got it right.

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Perhaps that is not meant to be taken literally' date=' but figuratively, meaning the anguish will be like that of being in a lake of fire, burning with brimstone and sulfur.[/quote']

 

How are people supposed to decided what to take literally or figuratively? Maybe Jesus wasn't the literal son of god? Maybe we are just supposed to look at Jesus figuratively and try to live our lives as he did?

 

See how this goes?

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What would be your response?

 

If Jesus is who he claimed' date=' how does it effect you?[/quote']

 

I already believe Jesus was who he claimed to be.

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What would be your response?

 

If Jesus is who he claimed' date=' how does it effect you?

 

Civil discussion sought pls.

Peace and love.[/quote']

 

If this is proven true, then I will believe it, the same as with everything else. It wouldn't affect me else at all.

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I thought you were Muslim?

 

I wouldn't BE Muslim if I didn't believe Jesus was who he claimed to be.

 

And because he is who he claimed to be, I am obligated to obey Jesus' God that anointed him for his mission. That's how I'm affected.

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What would be your response?

 

If Jesus is who he claimed' date=' how does it effect you?

 

Civil discussion sought pls.

Peace and love.[/quote']

 

295255_398078493610094_1443456657_n.jpg

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Honestly' date=' I don't know...

 

I know the Christians on here probably think I try to start trouble with the things I post (which are mostly just questions), but I have HUGE problems with a lot of what is written in the bible. Really, if you look at the bible objectively...[/quote']

 

Is it possible to look at it objectively without judging it out of context? Especially if you are in a culture that feels we should've "evolved past religion" by now?

 

Is it possible to look at it objectively if you don't study the material at all and only think you understand what is being discussed in the texts? For example:

 

"?I'd say to Jesus ?Hey, there's the part in revelations that says you're not allowed to do magic, you know that thing you did with the bread and fish.....? " ~Tapped2strikes

 

"Magic" means something different to the Harry Potter generation than it did to the ancients. Jesus wasn't performing "magic." But how would you know what the difference was in the context of what was actually being discussed if you never researched it? And how could you possibly be able to view/analyze the material with a clear and objective mind without a solid knowledge base to accurately judge it by?

 

...point blank the biblical god did some really evil things that can't just be swept under the rug.

 

What is "evil?" As an objective atheist/agnostic would you even know the term at all if it wasn't for religion? Why do you believe you have an accurate definition of it' date=' or even the authority to fling it around willy-nilly and attach it to whatever makes you uncomfortable?

 

God is the Author who determined what is 'righteous' and what is 'evil.' It was He who set down the criterion of discernment that dictates what the varying levels of MOST evil, MOST just, etc. Not us.

 

So it becomes a matter of do I devote my life to something that has killed more living things than any man ever has, just because he is my creator?

 

"Just because...?" lol Look at these two scenarios:

 

1.) A 4 year old child (A) spanks another 4 year old child (B) because 'B' did something 'A' didn't like.

 

2.) An adult spanks a 4 year old child for doing something the adult didn't like.

 

Can you tell me the difference between these two scenarios?

 

And Is the adult's spanking equal to the child's spanking? Is the adult's authority negated or somehow corrupt because she spanked more 4 year old bottoms than any 4 year old has?

 

I wrestle with this stuff in my head all the time. I honestly don't think any of this stuff is real...

 

You started off by saying' date=' "Honestly, I don't know..."

 

...but there is a part of my brain that realizes I could be very wrong and that I'm gambling with an eternity of torture.

 

1.) Humans have believed in God/afterlife for as long as we've been on earth. It's one of our defining characteristics as humans. That belief represents our ideals as a species... doing good, rejecting evil.

 

2.) Humans also have a dark side and can be the very lowest of the low. Absolutely psychotic and corrupt. They can't just leave something pure alone. Unless special precautions are taken, some will find a way to corrupt everything around them. You KNOW that.

 

3.) #1 means that it IS possible God does exist and to reject Him is a great mistake. If your excuse for not believing rests solely on #2, then you are a fool.

 

4.) In my opinion... if it was ME... and I felt disturbed at the idea that it might be true that I could be wrong about the existence of heaven & hell, it would seem smart to do research to get to the bottom of what I know to be true about my species concerning #2. Humans have always believed, and to dismiss that as some kind of primitive/ignorant crutch that they will eventually grow out of is stupid. Study. learn. And TRULY keep an open mind and look at things objectively based on real knowledge. Then make your decision.

 

But be warned that it is NOT a topic you can fully research in just a few weeks or so, and recognize that there is a reason mankind has ALWAYS believed and that belief isn't going anywhere.

 

In the end' date=' I'm a good man at heart and to me that is all that really matters.[/quote']

 

How do you know? Would everybody else agree? By what criteria are you using to judge that by? If God turned out to be real, would He think you were "good?" How would you know one way or the other?

 

Why should it matter that I also have to accept something written in a book as truth...

 

That book is how He chose to deliver guidance to you. Will you throw away that guidance because you prefer a holy iPod instead? So you would go to hell for no other reason than because you are stubborn and want the All-Powerful Creator of Reality to bow down to your spoiled brat-like whim?

 

...especially as contradictory at that book is?

 

You are human. Humans were given that book as a guide towards their Salvation and were charged the task of guarding it. As a human you know how something like that can go. Since your personal salvation is at stake, don't you think it's your job to see what the contradictions are, where they came from, why they are there, what was there before those contradictions appeared, and get to the bottom of the Truth for thine own sake?

 

Or do you prefer to sit in doubt and let the time tick by as the absolute certainty of your death... and Judgment... grow nearer and nearer?

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I believe God had no idea...

 

That's LITERALLY the opposite of "God."

 

God knows and it is you who know not.

 

This is the danger that comes from anthropomorphizing the Creator; we attach our limitations upon Him because we can't think any further than what our minds are able to grasp. We can say "All-Knowing, All-Powerful" but as a species we can't grasp what that truly means.

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This is another problem I have with the Bible and Christians. Seems only the parts that are nice' date=' sweet, loving and speak of eternal life tend to be taken literally. Everything else is touch and go.

 

It ends up just being the interpreters version as opposed to Gods version. And this is how you get all the different sects and denoms. The baptists and pentecostals take all the holy spirit and tongues scriptures literally, the lutherans take tithing really ****ing serious, the "non denoms" make it fluffy and mainstream, the catholics take repentance really seriously, and then you got the west boro baptist church who actually believe in the literal words of the whole bible.

 

Its a ****ING CLUSTER ****. Its chaos. And every single sect claims they got it right.[/quote']

 

This is nitpicking around the point.

 

Does it matter if an eternal torment is presented as the literal burning away of continuously rejuvenating flesh, or whether it's a horrify spiritual experience that is described that way as the closest thing to terrible an earth-bound being can grasp?

 

Either way the actual point is to act right so you don't have to find out. Isn't that what the "sects and denoms" have in common? What is more important in the Big Picture, the things they have in common that show the truth of how humans can reach our ideals, or the nitpicky differences that only have value in a crossword puzzle?

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What would be your response?

 

If Jesus is who he claimed' date=' how does it effect you?

 

Civil discussion sought pls.

Peace and love.[/quote']

 

I'm an atheist leaving a serious logical reply. Not meant to hurt feelings or start arguments but I just want to speak the truth.

 

If the biblical God does existing, then he's going to be very upset that I didn't believe he existed. So upset that my soul is going to burn for eternity in hell. Even though (like his son Jesus) I'm human and not perfect (like the created me). Yes, he will hold my flaws (that he gave me) and logic (which he created) against me and watch me tortured for eternity in hell just because I couldn't belve in him.

 

I'll then know I made the right choice not to worship him because like his son Jesus, I will sacrifice myself for doing what I believe is the right and good thing yet he will judge me for doing what I believe is good and torture my soul and then he will blame the devil.

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I'm an atheist leaving a serious logical reply. Not meant to hurt feelings or start arguments but I just want to speak the truth.

 

I would imagine feelings only get hurt if people lack the ability to discern between personal opinion and truth.

 

If the biblical God does existing' date=' then he's going to be very upset that I didn't believe he existed.[/quote']

 

"Let not those grieve thee who rush headlong into Unbelief: Not the least harm will they do to Allah." Holy Qur'an 3:176

 

He won't be upset. Your disbelief will only cause you to be upset. You harm your own soul.

 

So upset that my soul is going to burn for eternity in hell.

 

It will only be the fulfillment of justice' date=' prophecy and a promise to those who lack faith. It won't be personal at all.

 

Even though (like his son Jesus) I'm human and not perfect (like the created me). Yes, he will hold my flaws (that he gave me) and logic (which he created) against me...

 

lol He gave you his revelation to guide you to paradise because He took into account your natural weaknesses.

 

...and watch me tortured for eternity...

 

He won't be watching. He will be 100% indifferent.

 

...in hell just because I couldn't belve in him.

 

Your natural strengths enable you to believe in Him, you just chose not to use them.

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I would imagine feelings only get hurt if people lack the ability to discern between personal opinion and truth.

 

"Let not those grieve thee who rush headlong into Unbelief: Not the least harm will they do to Allah." Holy Qur'an 3:176

 

He won't be upset. Your disbelief will only cause you to be upset. You harm your own soul.

 

It will only be the fulfillment of justice' date=' prophecy and a promise to those who lack faith. It won't be personal at all.

 

lol He gave you his revelation to guide you to paradise because He took into account your natural weaknesses.

 

He won't be watching. He will be 100% indifferent.

 

Your natural strengths enable you to believe in Him, you just chose not to use them.[/quote']

 

You've studied your bible well. You're great with the quotes but all the quotes placed neatly after evey sentence you find fault proves one thing...you're brainwashed by a book and I can prove it, if you allow me and you open your mind for just 5 minutes.

 

You have no thoughts of your own, just quotes from a book that has brainwashed you so deeply that you will have a hard time returning from its hold. You read so much into your bible, all you can do is quote it. It's the ULTIMATE brainwash.

 

It's sad that you lost the ability to question your beliefs. That's the very definition of brainwashing. It's kind of like being told you can only draw cartoons one way or black superheroes will never be popular. It goes back thousands of years and its why religions have such a hold on people. You're a statistic. Your brain automatically refers to what you've read and what you were taught. Kind of like Hollywood won't create black superheroes on a regular basis. They believe one thing and one thing only. They don't grow.

 

Religious indoctrination is real. It is a traditionally based process of all cultures. Its power is such that peoples so affected have a ‘belief’ they have chosen their particular ‘faith’ above the many on offer throughout the planet.

 

All religions work on the principle of exposing each new generation to a single world-view, to the exclusion of all others, in a repetitious and authorative manner. Doubts, as to the veracity of such ‘teachings’ are not encouraged, indeed, are not tolerated.

 

Once learned, the information so gained is retained for life, allowing it to take on an instinctive mantle in later years. As with all acquired knowledge, such as learning to ride a bicycle or rote remembrance of mathematical time’s tables, once taught, unlearning is not an easy option.

 

This is not to say that the results of such methodology are not practically overcome-able.

 

Youthful brains soak up information with little effort, establishing permanent neuronic pathways. Older brains require considerably more effort to alter this situation. There are many Atheists to attest to this. In fact, it is the rule rather than the rarity that most Atheists were raised from infancy under some religious regime or other. Even the most intense religious indoctrination can be overcome.

 

Here is how it is achieved:

 

First, one must become acquainted with and become used to the correct terminology pertaining to religious indoctrination. Even though the religious are quick to point out that others have been brainwashed (Such as communists, other religious adherents and even Atheists), it is they who have succumbed to this process.

 

Brainwashing/inculcation/indoctrination is one in the same word in meaning. These words are used in reference to promoting a one-sided opinion as being truthful, without allowing access to other ideas and with no reservation in calling it unjustifiably, the ‘truth’. Considering the adverse ramifications of such methods and results of brainwashing, this is nothing less than mental child abuse of the worst kind and one day it will be viewed that way.

 

Just seriously think about this for a moment. If you are religious or harbour religious thoughts, it is more than most likely the result of being abused and mentally used as a child. There is no escaping this fact. That the abused can then go on to abusing others in a likewise fashion is near enough to proof positive of the reality of the situation.

 

Under the guise of a good for humanity, the fear of death and/or eternal damnation is instilled into the pliable and susceptible minds of children and continues into adulthood. Sprinkled with tales of eternal life, temporal wishes supernaturally achievable, the unworthiness of humans and the existence of a ‘good’ and an ‘evil’, sets the mental scene for subservient confusion.

 

Second, after recognising one has been abused and brainwashed against their will and without their knowledge, if escape is required, then effort to combat this negative outlook must be more intense and prolonged than the unwanted religious input.

 

A good start is to fully appreciate that all religious people of the thousands of religions that have and do exist, have been similarly abused, with them considering that they have the correct religion and all others are wrong. Even religions under the same name can state unequivocally that their counterparts have it incorrect. As an example, fundamentalist Christianity classes the Pope as the Anti-Christ and Catholicity a heresy.

 

Third, take a proper look at Earth. 50,000 Iranians have been recently killed by earthquake, 3,000 multi-denominational people died in the Twin Towers, 6 million Jewish people died in the Holocaust etc etc. Where were their respective gods? They were remarkably silent as they have been throughout history in humanities darkest hours.

 

Look at the system that sustains life on our planet: Every life form preys on another life form to exist. Some of this in such brutal and horrible fashion as to totally exclude the idea of a ‘loving’ god as the creator.

 

Look how the dice of life favours some and is more than wretched to others.

 

Look how natural disasters and pathogens kill and maim indiscriminately.

 

Fourth, it must be consciously recognised that books and ideas of old came from ignorant times, were written and passed on by ignorant men living by the malleable rules of all-encompassing superstition.

 

Fifth, and most importantly, it must be remembered that religions have held sway since consciousness arrived many tens of thousands of years ago. It is only in the last few hundred years that science has leapt onto the scene, and in doing so, has began to devour the very pillars holding superstition aloft.

 

Although it is not fully accepted yet, the one part of science that will eventually be seen as the most profound is the principle of evolution. Not only has science found no evidence for a supernatural realm, it has shown that evolution requires no such thing to sustain it.

 

Sixth and lastly, it therefore has to be asked as to why a super-being or thing would initiate a universe with us as only an infinitesimal dot within it. The Universe works on definite laws in a rational manner. Even if Quantum structure appears not to be so!

 

Such a rational creative force would hardly expect us to accept the irrationality that is religion especially as it is introduced in the heinous form of child abuse.

 

An all-loving god with control over every particle in existence, which chooses to allow immense suffering, cannot exist.

 

An all-powerful god incapable of creating perfect happiness for its creation is an oxy-moronic concept.

 

An all-knowing god that cannot see the inherent goodness of humanity and does not nurture and aid its creation in a fair and equitable manner is a god of immeasurably immoral proportion.

 

These thoughts and similar must be the constant companion of the adult psyche wishing to escape the foolishness of religious mind control.

 

Victims of child abuse can overcome the strong hold it has on them and in doing so can benefit greatly from the conflict. The brainwashing will always remain but in its subjugation it will eventually be replaced with feelings of pride of accomplishment.

 

This I guarantee. Think about all that with your next quote.

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You've studied your bible well. You're great with the quotes but all the quotes placed neatly after evey sentence you find fault proves one thing...you're brainwashed by a book and I can prove it' date=' if you allow me and you open your mind for just 5 minutes.

 

You have no thoughts of your own, just quotes from a book that has brainwashed you so deeply that you will have a hard time returning from its hold. You read so much into your bible, all you can do is quote it. It's the ULTIMATE brainwash.

 

It's sad that you lost the ability to question your beliefs. That's the very definition of brainwashing. It's kind of like being told you can only draw cartoons one way or black superheroes will never be popular. It goes back thousands of years and its why religions have such a hold on people. You're a statistic. Your brain automatically refers to what you've read and what you were taught. Kind of like Hollywood won't create black superheroes on a regular basis. They believe one thing and one thing only. They don't grow.

 

Religious indoctrination is real. It is a traditionally based process of all cultures. Its power is such that peoples so affected have a ‘belief’ they have chosen their particular ‘faith’ above the many on offer throughout the planet.

 

All religions work on the principle of exposing each new generation to a single world-view, to the exclusion of all others, in a repetitious and authorative manner. Doubts, as to the veracity of such ‘teachings’ are not encouraged, indeed, are not tolerated.

 

Once learned, the information so gained is retained for life, allowing it to take on an instinctive mantle in later years. As with all acquired knowledge, such as learning to ride a bicycle or rote remembrance of mathematical time’s tables, once taught, unlearning is not an easy option.

 

This is not to say that the results of such methodology are not practically overcome-able.

 

Youthful brains soak up information with little effort, establishing permanent neuronic pathways. Older brains require considerably more effort to alter this situation. There are many Atheists to attest to this. In fact, it is the rule rather than the rarity that most Atheists were raised from infancy under some religious regime or other. Even the most intense religious indoctrination can be overcome.

 

Here is how it is achieved:

 

First, one must become acquainted with and become used to the correct terminology pertaining to religious indoctrination. Even though the religious are quick to point out that others have been brainwashed (Such as communists, other religious adherents and even Atheists), it is they who have succumbed to this process.

 

Brainwashing/inculcation/indoctrination is one in the same word in meaning. These words are used in reference to promoting a one-sided opinion as being truthful, without allowing access to other ideas and with no reservation in calling it unjustifiably, the ‘truth’. Considering the adverse ramifications of such methods and results of brainwashing, this is nothing less than mental child abuse of the worst kind and one day it will be viewed that way.

 

Just seriously think about this for a moment. If you are religious or harbour religious thoughts, it is more than most likely the result of being abused and mentally used as a child. There is no escaping this fact. That the abused can then go on to abusing others in a likewise fashion is near enough to proof positive of the reality of the situation.

 

Under the guise of a good for humanity, the fear of death and/or eternal damnation is instilled into the pliable and susceptible minds of children and continues into adulthood. Sprinkled with tales of eternal life, temporal wishes supernaturally achievable, the unworthiness of humans and the existence of a ‘good’ and an ‘evil’, sets the mental scene for subservient confusion.

 

Second, after recognising one has been abused and brainwashed against their will and without their knowledge, if escape is required, then effort to combat this negative outlook must be more intense and prolonged than the unwanted religious input.

 

A good start is to fully appreciate that all religious people of the thousands of religions that have and do exist, have been similarly abused, with them considering that they have the correct religion and all others are wrong. Even religions under the same name can state unequivocally that their counterparts have it incorrect. As an example, fundamentalist Christianity classes the Pope as the Anti-Christ and Catholicity a heresy.

 

Third, take a proper look at Earth. 50,000 Iranians have been recently killed by earthquake, 3,000 multi-denominational people died in the Twin Towers, 6 million Jewish people died in the Holocaust etc etc. Where were their respective gods? They were remarkably silent as they have been throughout history in humanities darkest hours.

 

Look at the system that sustains life on our planet: Every life form preys on another life form to exist. Some of this in such brutal and horrible fashion as to totally exclude the idea of a ‘loving’ god as the creator.

 

Look how the dice of life favours some and is more than wretched to others.

 

Look how natural disasters and pathogens kill and maim indiscriminately.

 

Fourth, it must be consciously recognised that books and ideas of old came from ignorant times, were written and passed on by ignorant men living by the malleable rules of all-encompassing superstition.

 

Fifth, and most importantly, it must be remembered that religions have held sway since consciousness arrived many tens of thousands of years ago. It is only in the last few hundred years that science has leapt onto the scene, and in doing so, has began to devour the very pillars holding superstition aloft.

 

Although it is not fully accepted yet, the one part of science that will eventually be seen as the most profound is the principle of evolution. Not only has science found no evidence for a supernatural realm, it has shown that evolution requires no such thing to sustain it.

 

Sixth and lastly, it therefore has to be asked as to why a super-being or thing would initiate a universe with us as only an infinitesimal dot within it. The Universe works on definite laws in a rational manner. Even if Quantum structure appears not to be so!

 

Such a rational creative force would hardly expect us to accept the irrationality that is religion especially as it is introduced in the heinous form of child abuse.

 

An all-loving god with control over every particle in existence, which chooses to allow immense suffering, cannot exist.

 

An all-powerful god incapable of creating perfect happiness for its creation is an oxy-moronic concept.

 

An all-knowing god that cannot see the inherent goodness of humanity and does not nurture and aid its creation in a fair and equitable manner is a god of immeasurably immoral proportion.

 

These thoughts and similar must be the constant companion of the adult psyche wishing to escape the foolishness of religious mind control.

 

Victims of child abuse can overcome the strong hold it has on them and in doing so can benefit greatly from the conflict. The brainwashing will always remain but in its subjugation it will eventually be replaced with feelings of pride of accomplishment.

 

This I guarantee. Think about all that with your next quote.[/quote']

+1

But don't waste your breath. Man_rash is beyond reach homie. He's brainwashed. I've tried to show him the error of his reasoning. He even goes so far as to call LOGIC a burdensome thing not to be used when discussing God.

 

When someone doesn't respect the use of logic, what logical argument can you make for them? When someone doesn't understand evidence, what evidence can you show them or ask of them? When someone doesn't want to question their own beliefs, what questions can you ask of them?

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." ~Thomas Paine

 

@ OP

If the God of the Bible existed WHOLE CLOTH and not the grossly cherry picked and reimagined superfriend most Christians want him to be...

I'd go to hell for one of three reasons: not being Jewish or converting to Judaism and bowing to the might of YHWH (Judaism); not accepting Jesus as my lord and savior and repenting for sins (Christianity), or not accepting Muhammed as his final prophet and obeying the tenets set forth in the Qur'an (Islam).

 

Now, according to the actual scriptures, Hell is a horrible place of suffering. There are hells that are cold, silent, and you are chained to the walls, hells where you burn in a lake of fire, hells where you are ripped apart everyday, etc. The reimagined cherry picked version would be some sort of "seperation from god's love, but not an actual hell place" :rolleyes:

 

Lets say I die when I'm 65.

-15 years as a Christian

-4 years as a baby/toddler

For eternity, an immeasurable length of time, stretching into maybe trillions of years by comparison - I get to suffer and be tormented for the horrible evil action of being a nonbeliever for 45 or so years. A child rapist and murderer who found Jesus would go to heaven, how fair and reasonable :P

 

Heres the thing. Show some reasonable evidence for God existing and I'll believe it.

Once you show that a God exists however, the game is on to show WHICH one. Show reasonable evidence that the God of Moses/Abraham is real, and I'll believe it. I really will beelieve it.

Ask yourself though, IS that the God you would worship and love? A tyrant? A racist? A baby killer? A soul torturor?

 

Lets not get into the argument that torturing me for my "sins" is rediculous when I have merely followed the planned trajectory he already set forth before he even created.

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What would be your response?

 

If Jesus is who he claimed' date=' how does it effect you?

 

Civil discussion sought pls.

Peace and love.[/quote']

 

Civil discussion is difficult in threads like this, but it is possible

 

I believe in Jesus wholeheartedly so it would just be an amazing experience to meet him. I believe there is way more to existence than what we think we know in our 20's and there comes a point where you come to terms with your mortality on earth and seek something more. Time and space is infinte, and so are possibilities, so I think it's important to realize the possibility of a creator and there being a greater purpose to our existence on earth

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Civil discussion is difficult in threads like this' date=' but it is possible

 

I believe in Jesus wholeheartedly so it would just be an amazing experience to meet him. I believe there is way more to existence than what we think we know in our 20's and there comes a point where you come to terms with your mortality on earth and seek something more. Time and space is infinte, and so are possibilities, so I think it's important to realize the possibility of a creator and there being a greater purpose to our existence on earth[/quote']

I've honestly explored that possibility. I have honestly tried to.

 

 

But it is a two way street.

Have you tried honestly exploring the possiblity that you're wrong, and there is nothing beyond the physicality of the universe or our flesh?

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+1

But don't waste your breath. Man_rash is beyond reach homie. He's brainwashed. I've tried to show him the error of his reasoning. He even goes so far as to call LOGIC a burdensome thing not to be used when discussing God.

 

When someone doesn't respect the use of logic' date=' what logical argument can you make for them? When someone doesn't understand evidence, what evidence can you show them or ask of them? When someone doesn't want to question their own beliefs, what questions can you ask of them?

[i']"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." [/i]~Thomas Paine

.

 

You are correct. I've gone through this with him before. My main problem is the quoting of scripture. He's arguing with me by quoting something that has not been proven to be true. If you want to debate me, bust out facts. Facts that back up what you're saying. Tangible facts. He can quote me on this. It's an original...

Anyone can have faith in something but not everyone can have the faith in themselves to research that faith.

~Brady969

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Civil discussion is difficult in threads like this' date=' but it is possible

 

I believe in Jesus wholeheartedly so it would just be an amazing experience to meet him. I believe there is way more to existence than what we think we know in our 20's and there comes a point where you come to terms with your mortality on earth and seek something more. Time and space is infinte, and so are possibilities, so I think it's important to realize the possibility of a creator and there being a greater purpose to our existence on earth[/quote']

 

And that's a possibility Ive explored many times but I come back to the same question...

 

What about the disconnected? It's a question that shatters my belief in any deity or higher power with an agenda.

 

By the disconnected I mean the people who have nobody to teach them about the God you know and understand or the ones that were forced to believe in a God other than yours. How about the disconnected that grew up in less than ideal poverty stricken areas surrounded by crime amd learned life through horrible examples? Are they sacrificial lambs for you and I? What about the mentally ill? What purpose do they serve except for you and I to grow because of their existence? What kind of God creates sacrificial lambs so we can learn lessons in life?

 

Obviously something happened to bring us to this point in space and time because we are here BUT because you believe in any possibilities, WHAT IF this is a one time thing? What if this path we are on is only here because matter has always been here? If there's a possibility that an intelligent all knowing being created this then there's the possibility it didn't. We could just be here because matter in the matariel world has always been here. Existence could just be a loop. No beginning and no end.

 

I trust logic and logic also tells me if I'm wrong and there is a creator, that creator will forgive me for my logical thinking....after all he created me. Right?

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You've studied your bible well. You're great with the quotes but all the quotes placed neatly after evey sentence you find fault proves one thing...you're brainwashed by a book and I can prove it' date=' if you allow me and you open your mind for just 5 minutes.

 

You have no thoughts of your own, just quotes from a book that has brainwashed you so deeply that you will have a hard time returning from its hold. You read so much into your bible, all you can do is quote it. It's the ULTIMATE brainwash.

 

It's sad that you lost the ability to question your beliefs. That's the very definition of brainwashing. It's kind of like being told you can only draw cartoons one way or black superheroes will never be popular. It goes back thousands of years and its why religions have such a hold on people. You're a statistic. Your brain automatically refers to what you've read and what you were taught. Kind of like Hollywood won't create black superheroes on a regular basis. They believe one thing and one thing only. They don't grow.

 

Religious indoctrination is real. It is a traditionally based process of all cultures. Its power is such that peoples so affected have a ‘belief’ they have chosen their particular ‘faith’ above the many on offer throughout the planet.

 

All religions work on the principle of exposing each new generation to a single world-view, to the exclusion of all others, in a repetitious and authorative manner. Doubts, as to the veracity of such ‘teachings’ are not encouraged, indeed, are not tolerated.

 

Once learned, the information so gained is retained for life, allowing it to take on an instinctive mantle in later years. As with all acquired knowledge, such as learning to ride a bicycle or rote remembrance of mathematical time’s tables, once taught, unlearning is not an easy option.

 

This is not to say that the results of such methodology are not practically overcome-able.

 

Youthful brains soak up information with little effort, establishing permanent neuronic pathways. Older brains require considerably more effort to alter this situation. There are many Atheists to attest to this. In fact, it is the rule rather than the rarity that most Atheists were raised from infancy under some religious regime or other. Even the most intense religious indoctrination can be overcome.

 

Here is how it is achieved:

 

First, one must become acquainted with and become used to the correct terminology pertaining to religious indoctrination. Even though the religious are quick to point out that others have been brainwashed (Such as communists, other religious adherents and even Atheists), it is they who have succumbed to this process.

 

Brainwashing/inculcation/indoctrination is one in the same word in meaning. These words are used in reference to promoting a one-sided opinion as being truthful, without allowing access to other ideas and with no reservation in calling it unjustifiably, the ‘truth’. Considering the adverse ramifications of such methods and results of brainwashing, this is nothing less than mental child abuse of the worst kind and one day it will be viewed that way.

 

Just seriously think about this for a moment. If you are religious or harbour religious thoughts, it is more than most likely the result of being abused and mentally used as a child. There is no escaping this fact. That the abused can then go on to abusing others in a likewise fashion is near enough to proof positive of the reality of the situation.

 

Under the guise of a good for humanity, the fear of death and/or eternal damnation is instilled into the pliable and susceptible minds of children and continues into adulthood. Sprinkled with tales of eternal life, temporal wishes supernaturally achievable, the unworthiness of humans and the existence of a ‘good’ and an ‘evil’, sets the mental scene for subservient confusion.

 

Second, after recognising one has been abused and brainwashed against their will and without their knowledge, if escape is required, then effort to combat this negative outlook must be more intense and prolonged than the unwanted religious input.

 

A good start is to fully appreciate that all religious people of the thousands of religions that have and do exist, have been similarly abused, with them considering that they have the correct religion and all others are wrong. Even religions under the same name can state unequivocally that their counterparts have it incorrect. As an example, fundamentalist Christianity classes the Pope as the Anti-Christ and Catholicity a heresy.

 

Third, take a proper look at Earth. 50,000 Iranians have been recently killed by earthquake, 3,000 multi-denominational people died in the Twin Towers, 6 million Jewish people died in the Holocaust etc etc. Where were their respective gods? They were remarkably silent as they have been throughout history in humanities darkest hours.

 

Look at the system that sustains life on our planet: Every life form preys on another life form to exist. Some of this in such brutal and horrible fashion as to totally exclude the idea of a ‘loving’ god as the creator.

 

Look how the dice of life favours some and is more than wretched to others.

 

Look how natural disasters and pathogens kill and maim indiscriminately.

 

Fourth, it must be consciously recognised that books and ideas of old came from ignorant times, were written and passed on by ignorant men living by the malleable rules of all-encompassing superstition.

 

Fifth, and most importantly, it must be remembered that religions have held sway since consciousness arrived many tens of thousands of years ago. It is only in the last few hundred years that science has leapt onto the scene, and in doing so, has began to devour the very pillars holding superstition aloft.

 

Although it is not fully accepted yet, the one part of science that will eventually be seen as the most profound is the principle of evolution. Not only has science found no evidence for a supernatural realm, it has shown that evolution requires no such thing to sustain it.

 

Sixth and lastly, it therefore has to be asked as to why a super-being or thing would initiate a universe with us as only an infinitesimal dot within it. The Universe works on definite laws in a rational manner. Even if Quantum structure appears not to be so!

 

Such a rational creative force would hardly expect us to accept the irrationality that is religion especially as it is introduced in the heinous form of child abuse.

 

An all-loving god with control over every particle in existence, which chooses to allow immense suffering, cannot exist.

 

An all-powerful god incapable of creating perfect happiness for its creation is an oxy-moronic concept.

 

An all-knowing god that cannot see the inherent goodness of humanity and does not nurture and aid its creation in a fair and equitable manner is a god of immeasurably immoral proportion.

 

These thoughts and similar must be the constant companion of the adult psyche wishing to escape the foolishness of religious mind control.

 

Victims of child abuse can overcome the strong hold it has on them and in doing so can benefit greatly from the conflict. The brainwashing will always remain but in its subjugation it will eventually be replaced with feelings of pride of accomplishment.

 

This I guarantee. Think about all that with your next quote.[/quote']

 

Wow what a whooper of a post and a lot of well thought out reason.

 

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a second on three points you made.

 

Firstly lets assume thier is a god, creator force, entity whatever you wish to call it.

 

 

"An all-loving god with control over every particle in existence' date=' which chooses to allow immense suffering, cannot exist."

 

"An all-powerful god incapable of creating perfect happiness for its creation is an oxy-moronic concept."

 

"An all-knowing god that cannot see the inherent goodness of humanity and does not nurture and aid its creation in a fair and equitable manner is a god of immeasurably immoral proportion.".[/quote']

 

What if this idea of an all loving god isn't actually perfection. What if duality is sort of the checks and balances and laws of the universe and nature and the creator is all of that in one. What if suffering is a part of the natural order and without it the antagonist or mirror opposite cannot exist. i.e. what is light without the contrast of dark, what is love without hate etc. One defines and contrast with the other and maybe our perception of an absoultue loving perfection entity is flawed. What if our idea or concept of a god being perfection and somehow flawless is actually flawed.

 

We have these definitions on what is immorale but in the grand scheme of things perhaps it's all just a part of the natural order and in line with infinite posibilites that can't exist otherwise as an absolutist state or happiness or pefection without also having sorrow and imperfection.

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Wow what a whooper of a post and a lot of well thought out reason.

 

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a second on three points you made.

 

Firstly lets assume thier is a god' date=' creator force, entity whatever you wish to call it.

 

What if this idea of an all loving god isn't actually perfection. What if duality is sort of the checks and balances and laws of the universe and nature and the creator is all of that in one. What if suffering is a part of the natural order and without it the antagonist or mirror opposite cannot exist. i.e. what is light without the contrast of dark, what is love without hate etc. One defines and contrast with the other and maybe our perception of an absoultue loving perfection entity is flawed. What if our idea or concept of a god being perfection and somehow flawless is actually flawed.

 

We have these definitions on what is immorale but in the grand scheme of things perhaps it's all just a part of the natural order and in line with infinite posibilites that can't exist otherwise as an absolutist state or happiness or pefection without also having sorrow and imperfection.[/quote']

 

Great questions and I'd be a fool to dismiss anything you stated or asked.

 

I found that my life isn't a pain in the *** when I'm living it the best I can and doing what I know. I know I'm happiest when I'm the most logical. Logic helps me keeps things in perspective and keeps me on the right path (kind of like religion).

 

Although you questions and statements make good points and ask great questions, logic tells me if I was created with the power to reason, love, hurt, forgive, hate and be logical than my creator (for sake of argument ;) ) embodies those qualities. I could be wrong but I'm a logical guy :)

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You've studied your bible well. You're great with the quotes but all the quotes placed neatly after evey sentence you find fault proves one thing...you're brainwashed by a book and I can prove it' date=' if you allow me and you open your mind for just 5 minutes.

 

You have no thoughts of your own, just quotes from a book that has brainwashed you so deeply that you will have a hard time returning from its hold. You read so much into your bible, all you can do is quote it. It's the ULTIMATE brainwash.

 

It's sad that you lost the ability to question your beliefs. That's the very definition of brainwashing. It's kind of like being told you can only draw cartoons one way or black superheroes will never be popular. It goes back thousands of years and its why religions have such a hold on people. You're a statistic. Your brain automatically refers to what you've read and what you were taught. Kind of like Hollywood won't create black superheroes on a regular basis. They believe one thing and one thing only. They don't grow.

 

Religious indoctrination is real. It is a traditionally based process of all cultures. Its power is such that peoples so affected have a ‘belief’ they have chosen their particular ‘faith’ above the many on offer throughout the planet.

 

All religions work on the principle of exposing each new generation to a single world-view, to the exclusion of all others, in a repetitious and authorative manner. Doubts, as to the veracity of such ‘teachings’ are not encouraged, indeed, are not tolerated.

 

Once learned, the information so gained is retained for life, allowing it to take on an instinctive mantle in later years. As with all acquired knowledge, such as learning to ride a bicycle or rote remembrance of mathematical time’s tables, once taught, unlearning is not an easy option.

 

This is not to say that the results of such methodology are not practically overcome-able.

 

Youthful brains soak up information with little effort, establishing permanent neuronic pathways. Older brains require considerably more effort to alter this situation. There are many Atheists to attest to this. In fact, it is the rule rather than the rarity that most Atheists were raised from infancy under some religious regime or other. Even the most intense religious indoctrination can be overcome.

 

Here is how it is achieved:

 

First, one must become acquainted with and become used to the correct terminology pertaining to religious indoctrination. Even though the religious are quick to point out that others have been brainwashed (Such as communists, other religious adherents and even Atheists), it is they who have succumbed to this process.

 

Brainwashing/inculcation/indoctrination is one in the same word in meaning. These words are used in reference to promoting a one-sided opinion as being truthful, without allowing access to other ideas and with no reservation in calling it unjustifiably, the ‘truth’. Considering the adverse ramifications of such methods and results of brainwashing, this is nothing less than mental child abuse of the worst kind and one day it will be viewed that way.

 

Just seriously think about this for a moment. If you are religious or harbour religious thoughts, it is more than most likely the result of being abused and mentally used as a child. There is no escaping this fact. That the abused can then go on to abusing others in a likewise fashion is near enough to proof positive of the reality of the situation.

 

Under the guise of a good for humanity, the fear of death and/or eternal damnation is instilled into the pliable and susceptible minds of children and continues into adulthood. Sprinkled with tales of eternal life, temporal wishes supernaturally achievable, the unworthiness of humans and the existence of a ‘good’ and an ‘evil’, sets the mental scene for subservient confusion.

 

Second, after recognising one has been abused and brainwashed against their will and without their knowledge, if escape is required, then effort to combat this negative outlook must be more intense and prolonged than the unwanted religious input.

 

A good start is to fully appreciate that all religious people of the thousands of religions that have and do exist, have been similarly abused, with them considering that they have the correct religion and all others are wrong. Even religions under the same name can state unequivocally that their counterparts have it incorrect. As an example, fundamentalist Christianity classes the Pope as the Anti-Christ and Catholicity a heresy.

 

Third, take a proper look at Earth. 50,000 Iranians have been recently killed by earthquake, 3,000 multi-denominational people died in the Twin Towers, 6 million Jewish people died in the Holocaust etc etc. Where were their respective gods? They were remarkably silent as they have been throughout history in humanities darkest hours.

 

Look at the system that sustains life on our planet: Every life form preys on another life form to exist. Some of this in such brutal and horrible fashion as to totally exclude the idea of a ‘loving’ god as the creator.

 

Look how the dice of life favours some and is more than wretched to others.

 

Look how natural disasters and pathogens kill and maim indiscriminately.

 

Fourth, it must be consciously recognised that books and ideas of old came from ignorant times, were written and passed on by ignorant men living by the malleable rules of all-encompassing superstition.

 

Fifth, and most importantly, it must be remembered that religions have held sway since consciousness arrived many tens of thousands of years ago. It is only in the last few hundred years that science has leapt onto the scene, and in doing so, has began to devour the very pillars holding superstition aloft.

 

Although it is not fully accepted yet, the one part of science that will eventually be seen as the most profound is the principle of evolution. Not only has science found no evidence for a supernatural realm, it has shown that evolution requires no such thing to sustain it.

 

Sixth and lastly, it therefore has to be asked as to why a super-being or thing would initiate a universe with us as only an infinitesimal dot within it. The Universe works on definite laws in a rational manner. Even if Quantum structure appears not to be so!

 

Such a rational creative force would hardly expect us to accept the irrationality that is religion especially as it is introduced in the heinous form of child abuse.

 

An all-loving god with control over every particle in existence, which chooses to allow immense suffering, cannot exist.

 

An all-powerful god incapable of creating perfect happiness for its creation is an oxy-moronic concept.

 

An all-knowing god that cannot see the inherent goodness of humanity and does not nurture and aid its creation in a fair and equitable manner is a god of immeasurably immoral proportion.

 

These thoughts and similar must be the constant companion of the adult psyche wishing to escape the foolishness of religious mind control.

 

Victims of child abuse can overcome the strong hold it has on them and in doing so can benefit greatly from the conflict. The brainwashing will always remain but in its subjugation it will eventually be replaced with feelings of pride of accomplishment.

 

This I guarantee. Think about all that with your next quote.[/quote']

 

brainwashed as a child....hmm interdasting...

 

what about people who find Christ later on in life?

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Great questions and I'd be a fool to dismiss anything you stated or asked.

 

I found that my life isn't a pain in the *** when I'm living it the best I can and doing what I know. I know I'm happiest when I'm the most logical. Logic helps me keeps things in perspective and keeps me on the right path (kind of like religion).

 

Although you questions and statements make good points and ask great questions' date=' logic tells me [b']if I was created with the power to reason, love, hurt, forgive, hate and be logical than my creator (for sake of argument ;) ) embodies those qualities[/b]. I could be wrong but I'm a logical guy :)

 

to believe that a Divine Being such as God would be limited to your qualities as a flawed human is pretty funny...

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Great questions and I'd be a fool to dismiss anything you stated or asked.

 

I found that my life isn't a pain in the *** when I'm living it the best I can and doing what I know. I know I'm happiest when I'm the most logical. Logic helps me keeps things in perspective and keeps me on the right path (kind of like religion).

 

Although you questions and statements make good points and ask great questions' date=' [b']logic tells me if I was created with the power to reason, love, hurt, forgive, hate and be logical than my creator (for sake of argument ;) ) embodies those qualities. I could be wrong but I'm a logical guy[/b] :)

 

Yeah if there is some creator who's to say that it has to be what we would percieve as a perfect being i.e. the sterotypical all loving and perfect with none of the things what we would call flaws. I would think if thier is a creator it would be everything the exist and all possibilities and we're a part of that whole including the things we think of as so called flaws.

 

Another way to look at it is if thier is an afterlife why do we place so much importance on morality and death. Morality and death is just a concept of thought or figment of our imagination in a way and perhaps an instinct to make sense of things but in reality isn't really as big a deal as we make it out to be other than us aknowleging being able to work together is more productive to survival and continiued evolution but if there is an eternal afterlife or re-encarnation exist whats the big deal about morality/immorality and life/death?

 

If a person is killed by another does it truly matter when or how i mean were're all gonna die anyway and if we're are actually immortal does it really matter when or how? As crazy as that sounds it doesn't sound nearly as crazy when we look at other animals or anything else really.

 

Look at a lion for example by all accounts they are horrible murdering bastards. Yet it's not such a big deal to us. Neither is stomping an ant or swatting a fly. Why is that not deemed just as horrible as all the other things we see as horrible?

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to believe that a Divine Being such as God would be limited to your qualities as a flawed human is pretty funny...

 

The point i was making is how do you know your definition of limited and flawed is accurate.

 

Maybe god is the sum of everything even the so called flaws and it's just our wonky perception of everything being black and white that is wrong. What if it's all gray but the only way we can make sense of it is defining things in black and white.

 

Maybe the whole realm of possibilties, everything as a whole is god and everything is one but our perception trying to make sense of it all in black and white terms is all wrong.

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All established religions have been corrupted in some way' date=' because they were touched by man. You wanna find God? Go find Him yourself.[/quote']

 

Why would an all-powerful god, that creates the religion according to you, leaves it to be touched and corrupted by man. That seems a lousy way to convey information to us. How is that fair to us now? 2 000 years ago if you are a Christian, you had the "true" non-corrupted word of god, but now we have a corrupted version. Hardly seems fair when our eternal life is at stake.

 

An all powerful being could have done better.

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+1

But don't waste your breath. Man_rash is beyond reach homie. He's brainwashed. I've tried to show him the error of his reasoning. He even goes so far as to call LOGIC a burdensome thing not to be used when discussing God.

 

To him and others' date=' including on this forum, I also demonstrated how his arguments are logical fallacies, and when you add 0's you are still at 0 evidence or good reason.

 

Most people don't understand logical fallacies, BUT, what was really crazy was when him and/or others on here said:

 

[b']I am aware it is a logical fallacy, but I don't care, I still believe it[/b]

 

or....

 

God is above the rules of our logic

 

A statement that of course cannot be proven, and also worthy of terminating the discussion, because we can all just spew out random opinions and non-sense and not get anywhere if that's the case

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brainwashed as a child....hmm interdasting...

 

what about people who find Christ later on in life?

 

I worked at a television station that played a lot of multi-faith programming and it has given me some solid insight on this...

 

The one thing I notice about people that find religion later in life or without a religious upbringing is that 9 times out of 10, they find it religion during a moment of weakness in their lives. Before I continue I'm not going to say all, but the strong majority of stories I've heard on the christian shows I had to watch follow that trend. Someone loses their job, gets divorced, gets addicted to drugs, etc. Almost always the same story. At this point they are generally grasping for straws trying to find anything that can help, and because of this become a lot more receptive to religion. Of course, if they continue to follow the religious path, when things eventually start looking up, they feel that their new found religious conversion was the cause...

 

To be fair, sometimes that religious conversion is the cause, and gives someone that extra motivation to become better and pull themselves up from whatever hole they were in. But with that said, its not a supernatural power at work either, like those who go through this experience might think...

 

Anyways, like I said, thats not always the case, but I spent the better part of a full time job for 4 years listening to these stories and not once did I ever hear a story of a person that had his or her life going great then from that point have a religious experience.

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brainwashed as a child....hmm interdasting...

 

what about people who find Christ later on in life?

 

I think a good portion of those people are looking for something. Many of them lost lots in life or dealt with drug issues or family issues and they're looking for something. Bam, religion comes along and promises them happiness.

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to believe that a Divine Being such as God would be limited to your qualities as a flawed human is pretty funny...

 

Or to assume there is a God that is or isn't limited to our qualities.

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I think a good portion of those people are looking for something. Many of them lost lots in life or dealt with drug issues or family issues and they're looking for something. Bam' date=' religion comes along and promises them happiness.[/quote']

 

Same with all the people that I talked to.

 

I never heard a person that was not religious, converting to religion because of evidence or logical arguments.

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Same with all the people that I talked to.

 

I never heard a person that was not religious' date=' converting to religion because of evidence or logical arguments.[/quote']

 

I've heard of may that have left religion because they started thinking logical. That's why many religions deem logic evil. It's dangerous for their sheep to start thinking for themselves.

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Is it possible to look at it objectively without judging it out of context? Especially if you are in a culture that feels we should've "evolved past religion" by now?

 

Is it possible to look at it objectively if you don't study the material at all and only think you understand what is being discussed in the texts? For example:

 

"?I'd say to Jesus ?Hey' date=' there's the part in revelations that says you're not allowed to do magic, you know that thing you did with the bread and fish.....? "[/i'] ~Tapped2strikes

 

"Magic" means something different to the Harry Potter generation than it did to the ancients. Jesus wasn't performing "magic." But how would you know what the difference was in the context of what was actually being discussed if you never researched it? And how could you possibly be able to view/analyze the material with a clear and objective mind without a solid knowledge base to accurately judge it by?

 

 

 

What is "evil?" As an objective atheist/agnostic would you even know the term at all if it wasn't for religion? Why do you believe you have an accurate definition of it, or even the authority to fling it around willy-nilly and attach it to whatever makes you uncomfortable?

 

God is the Author who determined what is 'righteous' and what is 'evil.' It was He who set down the criterion of discernment that dictates what the varying levels of MOST evil, MOST just, etc. Not us.

 

 

 

"Just because...?" lol Look at these two scenarios:

 

1.) A 4 year old child (A) spanks another 4 year old child (B) because 'B' did something 'A' didn't like.

 

2.) An adult spanks a 4 year old child for doing something the adult didn't like.

 

Can you tell me the difference between these two scenarios?

 

And Is the adult's spanking equal to the child's spanking? Is the adult's authority negated or somehow corrupt because she spanked more 4 year old bottoms than any 4 year old has?

 

 

 

You started off by saying, "Honestly, I don't know..."

 

 

 

1.) Humans have believed in God/afterlife for as long as we've been on earth. It's one of our defining characteristics as humans. That belief represents our ideals as a species... doing good, rejecting evil.

 

2.) Humans also have a dark side and can be the very lowest of the low. Absolutely psychotic and corrupt. They can't just leave something pure alone. Unless special precautions are taken, some will find a way to corrupt everything around them. You KNOW that.

 

3.) #1 means that it IS possible God does exist and to reject Him is a great mistake. If your excuse for not believing rests solely on #2, then you are a fool.

 

4.) In my opinion... if it was ME... and I felt disturbed at the idea that it might be true that I could be wrong about the existence of heaven & hell, it would seem smart to do research to get to the bottom of what I know to be true about my species concerning #2. Humans have always believed, and to dismiss that as some kind of primitive/ignorant crutch that they will eventually grow out of is stupid. Study. learn. And TRULY keep an open mind and look at things objectively based on real knowledge. Then make your decision.

 

But be warned that it is NOT a topic you can fully research in just a few weeks or so, and recognize that there is a reason mankind has ALWAYS believed and that belief isn't going anywhere.

 

 

 

How do you know? Would everybody else agree? By what criteria are you using to judge that by? If God turned out to be real, would He think you were "good?" How would you know one way or the other?

 

 

 

That book is how He chose to deliver guidance to you. Will you throw away that guidance because you prefer a holy iPod instead? So you would go to hell for no other reason than because you are stubborn and want the All-Powerful Creator of Reality to bow down to your spoiled brat-like whim?

 

 

 

You are human. Humans were given that book as a guide towards their Salvation and were charged the task of guarding it. As a human you know how something like that can go. Since your personal salvation is at stake, don't you think it's your job to see what the contradictions are, where they came from, why they are there, what was there before those contradictions appeared, and get to the bottom of the Truth for thine own sake?

 

Or do you prefer to sit in doubt and let the time tick by as the absolute certainty of your death... and Judgment... grow nearer and nearer?

 

 

 

Sorry mate. Your post is very well written, but, and i don't say this to offend you, but, all i read in your post is ignorance, fear, and a 'pass the buck' mentality.

 

Ignorance to assume ANY holy book and your definitions of thier meanings are the absolute truth.

 

Fear that if you fail to believe in the holy book and its supposed creator, you will be punished with eternal damnation.

 

Passing the buck, because you prefer to have someone else dictate to you what is moral and what is not, what is right and what is wrong, rather than searching your soul to find those answers for yourself. Rather than standing on your own two feet, developing a conscience and finding that inner voice that instinctively guides you to moral clarity, you choose to pass the buck by handing all that over to your immam and the holy scripture, in the hope and expectation, that they've already got it figured out for you.

 

While ever you are under the umbrella of organised religion, you are in shackle's, and will never be a free man.

.

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I worked at a television station that played a lot of multi-faith programming and it has given me some solid insight on this...

 

The one thing I notice about people that find religion later in life or without a religious upbringing is that 9 times out of 10' date=' they find it religion during a moment of weakness in their lives. Before I continue I'm not going to say all, but the strong majority of stories I've heard on the christian shows I had to watch follow that trend. Someone loses their job, gets divorced, gets addicted to drugs, etc. Almost always the same story. At this point they are generally grasping for straws trying to find anything that can help, and because of this become a lot more receptive to religion. Of course, if they continue to follow the religious path, when things eventually start looking up, they feel that their new found religious conversion was the cause...

 

To be fair, sometimes that religious conversion is the cause, and gives someone that extra motivation to become better and pull themselves up from whatever hole they were in. But with that said, its not a supernatural power at work either, like those who go through this experience might think...

 

Anyways, like I said, thats not always the case, but I spent the better part of a full time job for 4 years listening to these stories and not once did I ever hear a story of a person that had his or her life going great then from that point have a religious experience.[/quote']

 

and that all makes sense, my main point was that he was claiming its all due to brainwashing as a child....when there are people who do not have religion all there lives, and find it as an adult later in life...so wheres the brainwashing as a child there?

 

thats the only thing i was pointing at

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There is quite a bit of ignorance floating around here.

Poly/Brady... you are mistaking Christ's teachings and the christian doctrine for some other religions. There is no promise of happiness on this earth, rather a difficult time seeking to live a righteous and holy life. The life of a true follower of God and Christ who is declared King of Kings and Lord of Lords is a life of suffering, not happiness. The happiness comes in the life that is promised after, which must be sought after in this life, but is only accessible through a crucifixion as it were of one's life here. The cross is the picture of how each true believer in God is to live their lives, always crucifying one's flesh daily in order to do the will of God through the body, just as Jesus showed us, and accepting by faith his sacrifice on the cross for our atonement. The old covenant for the new. Christ is the new, and was foreshadowed and foretold throughout the Torah.

 

This is what is radically different from all other beliefs is the cross and the resurrection.

Te christian life lived right before God is a life of difficulty.

 

"Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way that leads to life, and few are those who find it."

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Just like everything in life, one has to live through what the scriptures in the bible is saying. I've been through the worst times of my life and I only had my faith in myself and Jesus to latch on. For me, it worked. It took awhile but He never let me down!:cool:

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Why would an all-powerful god' date=' that creates the religion according to you, leaves it to be touched and corrupted by man. That seems a lousy way to convey information to us. How is that fair to us now? 2 000 years ago if you are a Christian, you had the "true" non-corrupted word of god, but now we have a corrupted version. Hardly seems fair when our eternal life is at stake.

 

An all powerful being could have done better.[/quote']

 

You really don't pay attention do you? I don't have a religion. Just don't believe we're alone.

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