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23 minutes ago, Bubba_Sparks said:

@juice64011 shaming me with the Swedish corona news...

Actually speaking of which, we officially lifted all the few remaining restrictions (apart from non-EU travel) last Thursday.  Appreciate that there is still some way to go in this thing, but I think Sweden's hands-off approach has been thoroughly vindicated. Not sure it would necessarily work everywhere, but all the doom-mongers and nay-sayers were predicting half a million dead Swedes by this time, and it's actually around 14,500.

For deaths per head of population, Sweden sits 17th highest in Europe out of 31.  Currently they've got an average of 600 cases a day and around 6 deaths a day, and the current number of people in ICU is about 36.  Crucially, we have still had 0 days of lockdown, less than 2 weeks of school's being closed and nobody was furloughed.  The economic, long-term health and mental health impacts are difficult to calculate, but the last 18 months has felt to most Swedes like a minor inconvenience, rather than a horrific life-changing period.

Meanwhile, I've got a mate in Australia who is getting married in a couple of weeks and can't have her family from the next state in attendance, although they could all in theory fly to South Africa together to have the wedding.

Common Sense and Healthy Living >> hysteria and quasi-fascist controls.

 

We hadn't had an update lately so someone had to do it. 

We locked down for awhile at the beginning, some people are still working from home, and some schools require masks, but overall everything has been back to normal here for 8+ months. 

We are 22nd in the states for deaths per capita and have been open way more than many other states that are higher than us. Once the data comes out, I don't think our overall death rates will be much higher than normal. 

 

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3 hours ago, Bubba_Sparks said:

@juice64011 shaming me with the Swedish corona news...

Actually speaking of which, we officially lifted all the few remaining restrictions (apart from non-EU travel) last Thursday.  Appreciate that there is still some way to go in this thing, but I think Sweden's hands-off approach has been thoroughly vindicated. Not sure it would necessarily work everywhere, but all the doom-mongers and nay-sayers were predicting half a million dead Swedes by this time, and it's actually around 14,500.

For deaths per head of population, Sweden sits 17th highest in Europe out of 31.  Currently they've got an average of 600 cases a day and around 6 deaths a day, and the current number of people in ICU is about 36.  Crucially, we have still had 0 days of lockdown, less than 2 weeks of school's being closed and nobody was furloughed.  The economic, long-term health and mental health impacts are difficult to calculate, but the last 18 months has felt to most Swedes like a minor inconvenience, rather than a horrific life-changing period.

Meanwhile, I've got a mate in Australia who is getting married in a couple of weeks and can't have her family from the next state in attendance, although they could all in theory fly to South Africa together to have the wedding.

Common Sense and Healthy Living >> hysteria and quasi-fascist controls.

 

I guess we see what we are looking for.

Sweden has a death rate from covid that is astronomically higher than any other scandinavian country

Sweden death per million - 1495

Denmark deaths per million - 458

Finland deaths per million -  195

Norway deaths per million - 161

If these numbers vindicate Sewedns approach what do they do for Norway's?

Btw Australia death per million - 50

 

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3 hours ago, UFCCagerattler said:

I guess we see what we are looking for.

Sweden has a death rate from covid that is astronomically higher than any other scandinavian country

Sweden death per million - 1495

Denmark deaths per million - 458

Finland deaths per million -  195

Norway deaths per million - 161

If these numbers vindicate Sewedns approach what do they do for Norway's?

Btw Australia death per million - 50

 

1000 deaths in a million and you think locking down the country and killing economies and peoples livelihoods across hundreds of thousands per million is worth it?

 

What a joke.

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36 minutes ago, MoZZez said:

1000 deaths in a million and you think locking down the country and killing economies and peoples livelihoods across hundreds of thousands per million is worth it?

 

What a joke.

This

It's now been close to 2 years since covid was found and we have more and more evidence that it was spreading months before we found it.

Sweden has 14,861 deaths with covid. Normally in the same time frame 180,000 people die there. 

How many of those 14,861 would have died within the last two years anyway? How many died from covid instead of just with covid? Without that info, the numbers are largely meaningless. 

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5 hours ago, juice64011 said:

This

It's now been close to 2 years since covid was found and we have more and more evidence that it was spreading months before we found it.

Sweden has 14,861 deaths with covid. Normally in the same time frame 180,000 people die there. 

How many of those 14,861 would have died within the last two years anyway? How many died from covid instead of just with covid? Without that info, the numbers are largely meaningless. 

How many murder victims were going to die anyway? How many people who were victims of drunk drivers were going to die anyway? I just don't think that argument should be used when it comes to human life.

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17 minutes ago, classicboxer said:

How many murder victims were going to die anyway? How many people who were victims of drunk drivers were going to die anyway? I just don't think that argument should be used when it comes to human life.

If granny with heart disease died of covid 3 months before her heart attack, do you think 360 million people should be locked up to give her 3 more months at everyone else's expense?

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2 hours ago, classicboxer said:

How many murder victims were going to die anyway? How many people who were victims of drunk drivers were going to die anyway? I just don't think that argument should be used when it comes to human life.

Very few of either of those since they are random accidents or intentional acts that can target anyone. 

On the other hand Covid is mostly deadly to two very specific groups which both have high mortality rates already.

There's a reason that scientists figure out the excess mortality and have it split up in many specific categories like age and race. It's one of the few ways to know exactly how deadly covid is and whether we should have taken more or less action. Unfortunately it largely depends on sketchy reporting so we will never have the exact number but hopefully we can get a close estimate. 

They will try to figure out the same numbers for non-covid related deaths which will give us an idea whether the actions taken led to more deaths. 

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14 hours ago, UFCCagerattler said:

I guess we see what we are looking for.

Sweden has a death rate from covid that is astronomically higher than any other scandinavian country

Sweden death per million - 1495

Denmark deaths per million - 458

Finland deaths per million -  195

Norway deaths per million - 161

If these numbers vindicate Sewedns approach what do they do for Norway's?

Btw Australia death per million - 50

 

So in your view, it's as simple as deaths per million?  The lower the number, the better a government has performed?

That feels a little simplistic.  By that approach, we should be lauding Burundi, Singapore, Angola, Somalia and China - all have deaths/million well below 100.

I can't really comment on Norway's approach because I don't live there. After a shaky first few months (the Swedes really screwed up on care homes at the start tbh), I think they've done an excellent job in finding the right balance between restrictions and allowing people to live their lives.  Like Juice says, it will take time to tell the real impact, both in lives lost and broader impacts.  Comparing apples with pears will rarely give that much insight.

Australia's an interesting one.  They pursued an eradication/isolation approach, which most of the West couldn't really do. Yet they never really seemed to have an exit plan from this, and have been very lacadaisacal about vaccines (even allowing the EU to bully them out of some of their stock).  Interested to hear from @Genki, @OzPride and @SavageTC if they think their lot have done a good job, or if their quasi-fascist approach is a step too far?

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11 hours ago, MoZZez said:

If granny with heart disease died of covid 3 months before her heart attack, do you think 360 million people should be locked up to give her 3 more months at everyone else's expense?

Yes, going out on Friday night is way more important than someone's life. Tell me how you know when people are going to die.

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9 hours ago, juice64011 said:

Very few of either of those since they are random accidents or intentional acts that can target anyone. 

On the other hand Covid is mostly deadly to two very specific groups which both have high mortality rates already.

There's a reason that scientists figure out the excess mortality and have it split up in many specific categories like age and race. It's one of the few ways to know exactly how deadly covid is and whether we should have taken more or less action. Unfortunately it largely depends on sketchy reporting so we will never have the exact number but hopefully we can get a close estimate. 

They will try to figure out the same numbers for non-covid related deaths which will give us an idea whether the actions taken led to more deaths. 

The whole narrative of covid only kills people who were already going to die is false. Therefore, the number is 700,000, no matter what spin you put on it.

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6 hours ago, Bubba_Sparks said:

So in your view, it's as simple as deaths per million?  The lower the number, the better a government has performed?

That feels a little simplistic.  By that approach, we should be lauding Burundi, Singapore, Angola, Somalia and China - all have deaths/million well below 100.

I can't really comment on Norway's approach because I don't live there. After a shaky first few months (the Swedes really screwed up on care homes at the start tbh), I think they've done an excellent job in finding the right balance between restrictions and allowing people to live their lives.  Like Juice says, it will take time to tell the real impact, both in lives lost and broader impacts.  Comparing apples with pears will rarely give that much insight.

Australia's an interesting one.  They pursued an eradication/isolation approach, which most of the West couldn't really do. Yet they never really seemed to have an exit plan from this, and have been very lacadaisacal about vaccines (even allowing the EU to bully them out of some of their stock).  Interested to hear from @Genki, @OzPride and @SavageTC if they think their lot have done a good job, or if their quasi-fascist approach is a step too far?

death from covid would be a key metric I would look at.

I would also look at what the swedes have done with mandate

It may well be that they did not need to mandate things that the people there were already doing - such as masking and distancing

I know that despite Sweden not imposing travel restriction the tourism into Sweden is down about 70%  due to other nations restricting travel - so they may have considered it unnecessary

what I believe is that places that treat covid as something other than a public health issue are struggling. 

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11 hours ago, MoZZez said:

If granny with heart disease died of covid 3 months before her heart attack, do you think 360 million people should be locked up to give her 3 more months at everyone else's expense?

27% of covid infections in America are now in children

time to update the misinformation .

 

https://fortune.com/2021/09/21/covid-cases-children-schools-1-million-cases-coronavirus-update/

Nearly 1 million U.S. children have contracted COVID in the past 4 weeks

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39 minutes ago, UFCCagerattler said:

27% of covid infections in America are now in children

time to update the misinformation .

 

https://fortune.com/2021/09/21/covid-cases-children-schools-1-million-cases-coronavirus-update/

Nearly 1 million U.S. children have contracted COVID in the past 4 weeks

Kids get sick, news at 11.

 

How many kids are dying?

The deaths are all old and sick. They were not long for the world anyway.

 

Thats like worrying about an alcoholic in liver failure dying of a stroke and then locking down the whole AA meeting because someone had a cold.

 

It's stupid.

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1 hour ago, classicboxer said:

The whole narrative of covid only kills people who were already going to die is false. Therefore, the number is 700,000, no matter what spin you put on it.

No one ever said only. I said "mostly" which is a statistically accurate statement based on reports provided.  

 

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There is an acceptable amount of deaths in everything we do, people just don't like to think about it.

Half the country never gets a flu vaccine even though the flu kills tens of thousands of people every year. We just accept it and live our lives. A lot of the people complaining are guilty of skipping the vaccine and going out in public with flu like symptoms in their lifetime. Lets quit pretending we can prevent every death because we can't. 

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1 hour ago, UFCCagerattler said:

death from covid would be a key metric I would look at.

I would also look at what the swedes have done with mandate

It may well be that they did not need to mandate things that the people there were already doing - such as masking and distancing

I know that despite Sweden not imposing travel restriction the tourism into Sweden is down about 70%  due to other nations restricting travel - so they may have considered it unnecessary

what I believe is that places that treat covid as something other than a public health issue are struggling. 

Swedes are an ignorant, anti-social bunch at the best of times, so social distancing didn't really need to be encouraged.  They like to joke that now the 2 metre rule has been relaxed they can all get back to standing 3 metres apart...

Masking was never mandated here. At the very peak, i reckon about 1 in 10 people wore it.

To the bold, I assume that every country treats it as a public health issue.  I'm also very wary of passing judgement on countries for things out of their control, or only available with the benefit of hindsight.  This is why I'm keen to praise Sweden.  They were consistent in their advice, they managed the numbers in ICU without ever having an actual lockdown, and they did a pretty good job of getting people vaccinated.

Don't get me wrong - they got some things badly wrong, especially at the start (which is partly why they did worse than our Scandanavian neighbours because it took hold before anyone knew much about Corona), but by and large, they've done a decent job. That was really my main point.

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1 hour ago, Bubba_Sparks said:

Swedes are an ignorant, anti-social bunch at the best of times, so social distancing didn't really need to be encouraged.  They like to joke that now the 2 metre rule has been relaxed they can all get back to standing 3 metres apart...

Masking was never mandated here. At the very peak, i reckon about 1 in 10 people wore it.

To the bold, I assume that every country treats it as a public health issue.  I'm also very wary of passing judgement on countries for things out of their control, or only available with the benefit of hindsight.  This is why I'm keen to praise Sweden.  They were consistent in their advice, they managed the numbers in ICU without ever having an actual lockdown, and they did a pretty good job of getting people vaccinated.

Don't get me wrong - they got some things badly wrong, especially at the start (which is partly why they did worse than our Scandanavian neighbours because it took hold before anyone knew much about Corona), but by and large, they've done a decent job. That was really my main point.

here's the conclusion to a long study on the differences between Norway and Sweden regarding covid 19 

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-020-09615-3

Conclusion

Our results show that both people in Norway and Sweden had a high level of trust in their government, despite different handling of the COVID-19 pandemic. The authorities in both countries experienced a high level of compliance to and acceptance of infection prevention measures from their populations, despite negative impact on daily life.

 

I think this is also the case in Canada where in general the provinces with liberal populations are compliant while the provinces with conservative populations are resistant to either voluntary or mandatory public health measures. 

When public health becomes a matter of ideology there is little hope for good outcomes.

America is a case in point.

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2 hours ago, UFCCagerattler said:

here's the conclusion to a long study on the differences between Norway and Sweden regarding covid 19 

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-020-09615-3

Conclusion

Our results show that both people in Norway and Sweden had a high level of trust in their government, despite different handling of the COVID-19 pandemic. The authorities in both countries experienced a high level of compliance to and acceptance of infection prevention measures from their populations, despite negative impact on daily life.

 

I think this is also the case in Canada where in general the provinces with liberal populations are compliant while the provinces with conservative populations are resistant to either voluntary or mandatory public health measures. 

When public health becomes a matter of ideology there is little hope for good outcomes.

America is a case in point.

The interesting thing in that report is that both norwegians and swedes were pretty happy with their government's approach, even though the approaches were completely different. 

So either swedes and norwegians are completely different, or they're both kinda brainwashed to idolise the government. 

Given they both vote for the same kind of parties, I'd lean towards the latter.

 

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19 hours ago, Bubba_Sparks said:

So in your view, it's as simple as deaths per million?  The lower the number, the better a government has performed?

That feels a little simplistic.  By that approach, we should be lauding Burundi, Singapore, Angola, Somalia and China - all have deaths/million well below 100.

I can't really comment on Norway's approach because I don't live there. After a shaky first few months (the Swedes really screwed up on care homes at the start tbh), I think they've done an excellent job in finding the right balance between restrictions and allowing people to live their lives.  Like Juice says, it will take time to tell the real impact, both in lives lost and broader impacts.  Comparing apples with pears will rarely give that much insight.

Australia's an interesting one.  They pursued an eradication/isolation approach, which most of the West couldn't really do. Yet they never really seemed to have an exit plan from this, and have been very lacadaisacal about vaccines (even allowing the EU to bully them out of some of their stock).  Interested to hear from @Genki, @OzPride and @SavageTC if they think their lot have done a good job, or if their quasi-fascist approach is a step too far?

It's multiple steps too far but the fascist Govts are starting to fall. Premier Of NSW and her deputy resigned, the Vic scumbag mate of @Yesterdays_Hero isn't far off. I'm incredibly lucky since in SA and I'm in the food industry I'm largely unaffected. 

 

muzzle mandates are the worst thing I have to deal with and they are also extremely unnecessary. 

deaths per million don't work because of the "of/with" discrepancy and also the fact that there is no accuracy in case numbers using the PCR method.

 

it's a ****ing shambles 

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One more before i call it a night . An extremely informative open letter addressed to chief medical officer Bonnie Henry; health minister Adrian Dix, premier John Horgan and Attorney General David Eby of British Columbia Canada from a group of concerned Dr's and prominent health workers. The letter is primarily directed towards events in Canada but could apply equally to any Country adopting such draconian punitive mandates.

  https://secureservercdn.net/166.62.104.68/19t.39f.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/OVHPs-2nd-open-letter-20211006-2e218617-9fe5-40c5-9ede-d4c353792fc7.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1NbDKbTBT2GGxCbAoSzs2ahJL5jwRCWmDpWyoknMNBE8RLT8QX8zfHHpQ

 

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On 10/8/2021 at 4:56 AM, classicboxer said:

How many murder victims were going to die anyway? How many people who were victims of drunk drivers were going to die anyway? I just don't think that argument should be used when it comes to human life.

less, because due to the lockdown the murderers and drunk drivers weren't allowed to go outside lol

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3 hours ago, Fred_Flink_Stoned said:

less, because due to the lockdown the murderers and drunk drivers weren't allowed to go outside lol

that didnt stop jon jones from getting his drunk аss arrested for DUI the day after giving everybody an advanced warning on twitter and telling them to stay home and stay safe.

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According to Johns Hopkins University’s data on COVID-19 deaths, since Jan. 1, there have been approximately 353,000 deaths from the pandemic. This is about a thousand more COVID-19 deaths than in all of 2020. The COVID-19 seven-day fatality rate in September was higher than last September.

50% are fully vaxxed, 20% have had at least 1 jab, and an estimated 100 million people have had covid in the US. 

Part of this could be that covid wasn't as widespread in the early part of 2020 and we had lockdowns but that doesn't fully explain how we can have that many protected people and still have similar or worse 7 day mortality rates. 

 

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On 10/8/2021 at 1:46 PM, Bubba_Sparks said:

The interesting thing in that report is that both norwegians and swedes were pretty happy with their government's approach, even though the approaches were completely different. 

So either swedes and norwegians are completely different, or they're both kinda brainwashed to idolise the government. 

Given they both vote for the same kind of parties, I'd lean towards the latter.

 

Trusting your government is not necessarily being brainwashed

Believing that to be the case may be brainwashing.

 

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27 minutes ago, juice64011 said:

According to Johns Hopkins University’s data on COVID-19 deaths, since Jan. 1, there have been approximately 353,000 deaths from the pandemic. This is about a thousand more COVID-19 deaths than in all of 2020. The COVID-19 seven-day fatality rate in September was higher than last September.

50% are fully vaxxed, 20% have had at least 1 jab, and an estimated 100 million people have had covid in the US. 

Part of this could be that covid wasn't as widespread in the early part of 2020 and we had lockdowns but that doesn't fully explain how we can have that many protected people and still have similar or worse 7 day mortality rates. 

 

The delta variant is a far more contagious and deadly pathogen.

It has also revised the numbers need for herd immunity upwards

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21 hours ago, TwennyFo said:

One more before i call it a night . An extremely informative open letter addressed to chief medical officer Bonnie Henry; health minister Adrian Dix, premier John Horgan and Attorney General David Eby of British Columbia Canada from a group of concerned Dr's and prominent health workers. The letter is primarily directed towards events in Canada but could apply equally to any Country adopting such draconian punitive mandates.

  https://secureservercdn.net/166.62.104.68/19t.39f.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/OVHPs-2nd-open-letter-20211006-2e218617-9fe5-40c5-9ede-d4c353792fc7.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1NbDKbTBT2GGxCbAoSzs2ahJL5jwRCWmDpWyoknMNBE8RLT8QX8zfHHpQ

 

The guy behind that letter is a well-known anti vaxx misinformation guru.

 

You will note that nowhere in that download does it list all these medical professionals who are supposedly behind it.

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38 minutes ago, UFCCagerattler said:

The delta variant is a far more contagious and deadly pathogen.

It has also revised the numbers need for herd immunity upwards

The Delta Variant was first discovered in October of 2020 which means it was likely around way before that and we didn't have any vaccinations. Now 80% of the population is protected by either vaccines or natural immunity. The numbers dont add up if the vaccines are as effective as they say. 

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14 hours ago, UFCCagerattler said:

The guy behind that letter is a well-known anti vaxx misinformation guru.

 

You will note that nowhere in that download does it list all these medical professionals who are supposedly behind it.

Doctors in BC and elsewhere face censorship and disciplinary action being taken against them up to and including losing their licence to practice thereby losing their ability to earn a living for speaking out. The College of Physicians and Surgeons of BC issued a stark warning as to anyone who chose to speak out against the official narrative. But you already knew that, right?.

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31 minutes ago, TwennyFo said:

Doctors in BC and elsewhere face censorship and disciplinary action being taken against them up to and including losing their licence to practice thereby losing their ability to earn a living for speaking out. The College of Physicians and Surgeons of BC issued a stark warning as to anyone who chose to speak out against the official narrative. But you already knew that, right?.

 

I know that vaccines have saved lives

 

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In the interests of avoiding this rather painful slow dance, please clarify your position for the edification of the fora on the following points:-

1. I think that vaccines in general work

2. I think that there is strong evidence that the various Corona vaccines reduce most people's chances of dying, or getting seriously ill from Corona.

3. I think that there is also strong evidence that there is a very small probability of suffering serious side effects

4. It is unknown (and somewhat unknowable) to what extent the vaccines reduce the spread

I have no problem with governments doing their best to encourage as many people as possible to get vaccinated. I have a big problem with them mandating it, or cutting their citizens off from basic human needs (like food) if they haven't.

I would also argue that only the 5th statement is an opinion. The first four are highly evidenced, unless we just go down the route of we don't trust any numbers.

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The thing is governments are not driving the demand for vaccine mandates - the demand is coming from business and from the public.

Government - as is their way - is only responding to something they cannot afford to ignore.

In Canada Mr Trudeau has made a career of only doing things he is absolutely forced into doing - and you will note that in Canada these mandates are not coming from the federal government until they come from provincial government. And they only come from provincial government when business groups demand them,

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2 minutes ago, UFCCagerattler said:

The thing is governments are not driving the demand for vaccine mandates - the demand is coming from business and from the public.

Government - as is their way - is only responding to something they cannot afford to ignore.

In Canada Mr Trudeau has made a career of only doing things he is absolutely forced into doing - and you will note that in Canada these mandates are not coming from the federal government until they come from provincial government. And they only come from provincial government when business groups demand them,

Not sure that statement holds true for all countries.  The UK certainly seemed to scrap a lot of their plans for vaccine mandates due to public pressure, but from what i can tell, France (for example) imposed a ton due to their vaccination program stagnating (an issue that largely arose from Macron flip-flopping on the AZ vaccine to appease his European masters)

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6 minutes ago, Bubba_Sparks said:

Not sure that statement holds true for all countries.  The UK certainly seemed to scrap a lot of their plans for vaccine mandates due to public pressure, but from what i can tell, France (for example) imposed a ton due to their vaccination program stagnating (an issue that largely arose from Macron flip-flopping on the AZ vaccine to appease his European masters)

If you own a business that is shut down due to covid I don't see how you can be against vaccine mandates.

Its the only way forward.

 

 

 

 

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If you own a business that wants to vaccinate your employees because its the only way forward and you are worried about some of them quitting and going to your competition them how can you be against mandates?

These over-riding federal mandates are really only enabling employers to do something they already want to do.

I have run my own business(es) for many years. There is no way I will force someone to work along side someone else who is not vaccinated

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3 minutes ago, UFCCagerattler said:

If you own a business that wants to vaccinate your employees because its the only way forward and you are worried about some of them quitting and going to your competition them how can you be against mandates?

These over-riding federal mandates are really only enabling employers to do something they already want to do.

I have run my own business(es) for many years. There is no way I will force someone to work along side someone else who is not vaccinated

This is illogical. You are protected by being vaccinated. Not by the guy next to you being vaccinated.  

Tbf, I'm much more bothered about things like people being denied access to supermarkets unless they can prove they've been vaccinated. If an employer wants to set demands on his employees then that's his business. 

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6 minutes ago, Bubba_Sparks said:

This is illogical. You are protected by being vaccinated. Not by the guy next to you being vaccinated.  

Tbf, I'm much more bothered about things like people being denied access to supermarkets unless they can prove they've been vaccinated. If an employer wants to set demands on his employees then that's his business. 

Its entirely logical

What if a have kids? What if I have someone living at home who is immune compromised? What is one of my elderly parents live with me? What if I am just interested in seeing this pandemic end?

The idea that the vaccine is some sort of magic is ridiculous.

All it does is reduce the chances that you will get covid and reduce the chances that you will get sick and die from it. Just the way other vaccines for other illnesses work.

 

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1 hour ago, Bubba_Sparks said:

In the interests of avoiding this rather painful slow dance, please clarify your position for the edification of the fora on the following points:-

1. I think that vaccines in general work

2. I think that there is strong evidence that the various Corona vaccines reduce most people's chances of dying, or getting seriously ill from Corona.

3. I think that there is also strong evidence that there is a very small probability of suffering serious side effects

4. It is unknown (and somewhat unknowable) to what extent the vaccines reduce the spread

I have no problem with governments doing their best to encourage as many people as possible to get vaccinated. I have a big problem with them mandating it, or cutting their citizens off from basic human needs (like food) if they haven't.

I would also argue that only the 5th statement is an opinion. The first four are highly evidenced, unless we just go down the route of we don't trust any numbers.

I think the vaccines work in general. 

I think there is evidence they reduce people's chances of dying or getting seriously ill.

We don't truly know how effective they are, some studies show they aren't as effective as they claim, and immunity drops quickly.

I think there is a possibility of serious illness, disability, or death from vaccines. 

We don't know how much they stop the spread. 

Mandating anything that will kill or make people seriously ill is completely wrong. 

If you enact mandates, people with natural immunity should get a pass as they are just as if not more protected than others. 

Vaccines aren't going to end the pandemic. 

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