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VertFTW

Valiant attempt by Reyes but...

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He didn't really think he would beat an established champ like Jones by point fighting? Lol 

 

Imo he over respected Jones stand up game...should have taken more risk in first 3 rounds to get a finish.

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1 hour ago, VertFTW said:

He didn't really think he would beat an established champ like Jones by point fighting? Lol 

 

Imo he over respected Jones stand up game...should have taken more risk in first 3 rounds to get a finish.

He clearly won the fight, took the first 3 rounds easily....maybe he should have blown his load in the first 3 rounds, so he was totally gassed for the Championship rounds.

Mexican logic, priceless.

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59 minutes ago, Bwana said:

He clearly won the fight, took the first 3 rounds easily....maybe he should have blown his load in the first 3 rounds, so he was totally gassed for the Championship rounds.

Mexican logic, priceless.

Na, he did no damage...no prize fighting judge will give you a title like that...you need to do damage, finish and significantly beat a champ beyond a shadow of a doubt...you guys dont know anything about mma or prize fighting.

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19 minutes ago, VertFTW said:

Show me when Reyes did damage? Jones was never in any risk

What damage did Jones do? Jones was in more trouble at the beginning of round 2 than Reyes ever was. Jones' face had more damage than Reyes. 

Everyone that says Jones won are saying pressure and his takedowns won the fight. There isn't a mention about any significant strike that turned the fight. That's the definition of point fighting. 

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Reyes should have won the fight according to a fair application of the scoring system currently in place. In a sport constantly under siege by incompetent judging and inconsistent officiating, it's hardly the worst decision we've seen. However, it doesn't change the fact that the decision rendered last night was the wrong one.

The idea "in order to beat the champ, you need to BEAT the champ" may sound intriguing, it has never been more than a myth. Nothing in the rule book or the scoring metrics imply that a current champion is due a certain amount of deference due to his or her status as a title holder. A title fight is supposed to be scored the same as any other, and Reyes should have won accordingly.

It is what it is. Jones will never concede the fact that he truly lost his belt last night and the sport will move on to the next big story.

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3-2 is not a robbery. People need to stop throwing that word around so much. The judges saw just 1 round differently. The KGB Lee was a robbery, she won every round

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1 hour ago, juice64011 said:

What damage did Jones do? Jones was in more trouble at the beginning of round 2 than Reyes ever was. Jones' face had more damage than Reyes. 

Everyone that says Jones won are saying pressure and his takedowns won the fight. There isn't a mention about any significant strike that turned the fight. That's the definition of point fighting. 

Jones did enough to defend the title.....there really wasnt any moment in the fith were Jones was in trouble....just a few scrambles here and there but again no damage.....Reyes didnt do enough to win.....and he looked bad in the last two rounds....

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Jon beat up Reyes legs pretty good but that's about it and i think a lot of that damage was done via clashing shins which they both did quite a bit in the early rds. Jon landed a few clean light punches & low kicks the entire fight that got Reyes attention here and there but nothing that really hurt him. 

Jon was in survival mode at least twice if not three or four times when he got clipped in the fight but he was able to hold on, sprint for dear life, block/evade & make Reyes waste energy chasing and missing looking for that clean follow-ups to put him away that never came.  After these exchanges Jon did pressure Reyes but Reyes realized he needed to stop taking the bait get on his bike & pose enough of a counter pot shot threat outside that Jon wouldn't rush him and take advantage of him while he recovered from those outputs. 

The only time Jon had Reyes in any trouble is when he took his back and got a hook in but he was able to get back up before Jon could establish position & unleash GnP. So that was a wash there in the grappling exchanges. They both wasted energy & nothing happened damage wise or submission threat wise. 

Jon was definitely out pointed & more beat up after the fight. Reyes was basically only more tired. 

Despite the controversy it was a really interesting match-up technically with their different skills, strategic approaches, the surges, counter surges with the energy output & recovery tactics. 

The thing that impressed me most about Reyes was his ability to completely shut down and dismantle Jon's early feel out long game with his teeps, side kicks, spinning backs & pawing. Besides the nice punches Reyes landed the shin clashing really threw Jon off balance and shut down Jon's linear kicking game down early so he had to rely more on his defense, long boxing, some round kicks and wrestling earlier than he would have. 

The thing that impressed me most with Jon was his defensive ability to survive after getting cracked & hurt a few times early and his ability to continue to press all through large portions of the fight to sap Reyes & keep him at bay along with posing the TD threat at the right moments to limit Reyes from taking over. 

 

Edited by StompGrind
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19 minutes ago, VertFTW said:

Jones did enough to defend the title.....there really wasnt any moment in the fith were Jones was in trouble....just a few scrambles here and there but again no damage.....Reyes didnt do enough to win.....and he looked bad in the last two rounds....

Lol, Reyes only landed more strikes, more significant strikes, more head strikes, more body strikes and stuffed 7 out of 9 takedown attempts. 

I agree that Jones won the 4th and 5th but Reyes landed his share of strikes. Jones just landed more because he kept throwing leg kicks. 

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1 minute ago, I_Take_Roids_m8 said:

The last two rounds don't mean anything more than the first three rounds. 

 

Judges are just retards. 

First rd especially i could see an argument for a 10-8. 

I disagreed it was a complete robbery because i viewed it close over all rd by rd but i'm baffled how anyone saw Jon winning the first two rds. 3rd was closer but i still had that Reyes as well. 

Regardless of stupid judging rd by rd if you view as a whole fight Jon definitely got his @ss whooped. 

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3 hours ago, Bwana said:

He clearly won the fight, took the first 3 rounds easily....maybe he should have blown his load in the first 3 rounds, so he was totally gassed for the Championship rounds.

Mexican logic, priceless.

 

2 hours ago, VertFTW said:

Na, he did no damage...no prize fighting judge will give you a title like that...you need to do damage, finish and significantly beat a champ beyond a shadow of a doubt...you guys dont know anything about mma or prize fighting.

 

Obviously you must agree with the 49-46 doochybag judge's card, you'd make a great Mod bro. There are countless MMA fights where the Champ lost the belt, without getting KO'd or completely dominated....Jones was out pointed, and his face looked it.

Waiting for him to fail the USADA post fight test.

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In reality there were even worse decisions on the card, the judges should have been shot.

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13 minutes ago, Bwana said:

In reality there were even worse decisions on the card, the judges should have been shot.

True. Andrea Lee easily won. The fact that people think that 3-4 fights were judged incorrectly is a big problem. 

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1 hour ago, StompGrind said:

First rd especially i could see an argument for a 10-8. 

I disagreed it was a complete robbery because i viewed it close over all rd by rd but i'm baffled how anyone saw Jon winning the first two rds. 3rd was closer but i still had that Reyes as well. 

Regardless of stupid judging rd by rd if you view as a whole fight Jon definitely got his @ss whooped. 

I believe it was on the old scoring system/rules so they don't hand out those 10-8's as readily.

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50 minutes ago, Decompoze said:

I believe it was on the old scoring system/rules so they don't hand out those 10-8's as readily.

Completely ridiculous to think a 10-8 would have been handed out for the first round. Lol @StompGrind

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Hopefully Reyes learns from his mistakes this title fight so he can be a little more aggressive next time and go for the finish. Unless he wants to turn into another delusional weidman

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1 hour ago, Decompoze said:

I believe it was on the old scoring system/rules so they don't hand out those 10-8's as readily.

Unified rules:
Effective Striking/Grappling shall be considered the first priority of round assessments. Effective Aggressiveness is a „Plan B‟ and should not be considered unless the judge does not see ANY advantage in the Effective Striking/Grappling realm. Cage/Ring Control („Plan C‟) should only be needed when ALL other criteria are 100% even for both competitors. This will be an extremely rare occurrence.


Source:
http://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/2017-Official-MMA-Judging-Criteria.pdf
Second paragraph of the document.
https://www.dca.ca.gov/csac/forms_pubs/publications/unified_rules_2017.pdf
Top of page 2.


Texas Scoring Criteria (old criteria):
(d) Scoring Techniques.

(1) Using the 10-Point Must Scoring System, judges are required to determine a winner of a contest that ends after the scheduled number of rounds have been completed. Ten points must be awarded to the winner of each round and 9 points or less must be awarded to the loser, except for a rare even round, which is scored a 10-10.

(2) Judges must evaluate mixed martial arts techniques, such as effective striking, effective grappling, fighting area control, and effective aggressiveness/defense.


https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/sports/sportsrules.htm#61111

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Close fight, reyes did damage in the 1st not a ton but it was damage maybe even lyoto damage level. 

I had it 1-2 reyes 4-5 jones, that 3rd round was close though and under the old rules, goes to jones.

Rematch wont happen because of corey anderson who been knowing how to beat jones for 5 yrs...

You have to beat the champ to be the champ, make title fights 5th round unlimited.

 

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13 hours ago, the_vagenius said:

You have to beat the champ to be the champ, make title fights 5th round unlimited. 

Exactly, not sure why Reyes' gameplan revoled around trying to edge out a point fighting decision......in a title fight it might work out in your favor maybe 1/10 tries so as a contender this strategy is beyond retarded IMO. Add to this he looked weak the last two rounds and people are suprised he didnt win even though his stats were better than jones lol sigh........

 

You make a good point that maybe 5th round should have rule changes or something...you need to take the champ out convincingly in some way shape or form.

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2 minutes ago, VertFTW said:

Exactly, not sure why Reyes' gameplan revoled around trying to edge out a point fighting decision......in a title fight it might work out in your favor maybe 1/10 tries so as a contender this strategy is beyond retarded IMO. Add to this he looked weak the last two rounds and people are suprised he didnt win even though his stats were better than jones lol sigh........

 

You make a good point that maybe 5th round should have rule changes or something...you need to take the champ out convincingly in some way shape or form.

Saying that the champion somehow has an advantage before the fight takes place is just stupid and against the rules. If they are a true champion, they should be able to beat the contender in a fair contest. 

You can't make unlimited rounds and be sanctioned by athletic commissions so that isn't ever going to happen. 

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43 minutes ago, juice64011 said:

Saying that the champion somehow has an advantage before the fight takes place is just stupid and against the rules. If they are a true champion, they should be able to beat the contender in a fair contest. 

You can't make unlimited rounds and be sanctioned by athletic commissions so that isn't ever going to happen. 

 

To add to this, the champion should have to prove himself just as much the contender if not more if what these clowns are spewing. 

 

Why even have a round based system if you have morons saying only rounds 4 and 5 should count  even if the champ loses the first three rounds. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, juice64011 said:

Saying that the champion somehow has an advantage before the fight takes place is just stupid and against the rules. If they are a true champion, they should be able to beat the contender in a fair contest. 

You can't make unlimited rounds and be sanctioned by athletic commissions so that isn't ever going to happen. 

lol at your rigid viewpoint.....in combat sports this has never been the case and the reason winners are decided based on judging instead of scoring system like Football, baseball etc.... Judging means you have a individual or group looking at the fight in live enviroment and using various factors witin rule set to say who won.

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12 minutes ago, VertFTW said:

lol at your rigid viewpoint.....in combat sports this has never been the case and the reason winners are decided based on judging instead of scoring system like Football, baseball etc.... Judging means you have a individual or group looking at the fight in live enviroment and using various factors witin rule set to say who won.

Unless they're too busy texting. 

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5 minutes ago, VertFTW said:

lol at your rigid viewpoint.....in combat sports this has never been the case and the reason winners are decided based on judging instead of scoring system like Football, baseball etc.... Judging means you have a individual or group looking at the fight in live enviroment and using various factors witin rule set to say who won.

You can't even spell so don't try throwing out definitions like I don't understand the rules.

The judges use a round by round scoring system to decide a winner. Since the cards are filled out after each round, every round is just as important as others. It's not like they can go back after the fifth and change scores on rounds 1 or 2. 

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15 minutes ago, juice64011 said:

You can't even spell so don't try throwing out definitions like I don't understand the rules.

The judges use a round by round scoring system to decide a winner. Since the cards are filled out after each round, every round is just as important as others. It's not like they can go back after the fifth and change scores on rounds 1 or 2. 

yeah they use scoring cards but again....the reason the judges are there is to add human visual element of who is actually winning the fight...not just strikes landed. Otherwise we would just have machines doing the job right?

 

If you are trying to discredit me because of spelling I would venture to point out to you that blocked TD attempts are not valid for scoring.

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2 minutes ago, VertFTW said:

yeah they use scoring cards but again....the reason the judges are there is to add human visual element of who is actually winning the fight...not just strikes landed. Otherwise we would just have machines doing the job right?

 

If you are trying to discredit me because of spelling I would venture to point out to you that blocked TD attempts are not valid for scoring.

Saying that a champion has an inherent advantage on the scorecards before a fight starts is against the rules and quite frankly illegal. I'm not saying that they never have had that advantage but they shouldn't. 

Dana says to not leave it in the hands of the judges. That's a cop out because he doesn't know how to fix the issue. When two evenly matched athletes are in there, you aren't always going to get a finish. They should be confident that the judges can correctly do their job 99% of the time. 

 

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21 minutes ago, juice64011 said:

Saying that a champion has an inherent advantage on the scorecards before a fight starts is against the rules and quite frankly illegal.

lmao, I never said this....They start off the same........ A challenger needs to dethrone a champion and there are judge(s) that make a determination if that has happend. They dont just go off of who scored the most points.....there are other intangibles...thus you have judges....this is something I think you have not understood.

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oOFn1yZ_d.jpg

 

of the 3 score cards I agree with Chris Lee's viewpoint...Id say thats the best viewpoint. Id say Marco Rosales view was a bit off since there is no way I would give Reyes the 3rd round lol

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so many people including Dana, Rogan etc say the scoring system is no good yet not one of them has any suggestions or has gone away & thought of a solution over the years. The subject just comes up time & time again. 

So... until someone does something “it is what it is” just dont leave it in the judges hands or suffer the consequences. Even just replacing the random officials with actual ex fighters or something would be an improvement even if you keep the current system.

 

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33 minutes ago, agtx said:

so many people including Dana, Rogan etc say the scoring system is no good yet not one of them has any suggestions or has gone away & thought of a solution over the years. The subject just comes up time & time again. 

So... until someone does something “it is what it is” just dont leave it in the judges hands or suffer the consequences. Even just replacing the random officials with actual ex fighters or something would be an improvement even if you keep the current system.

 

The problem is the commissions. Each state has their own licensed judges.  The UFC has a say in judges but can't pick whomever they want. 

I don't see the point in having judges ringside anymore. Our view is much better than their's even with a monitor. Put each in a quiet room with a TV and a closed feed to the fight. 

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Just get Rogan to judge the fights.  Then he has to stand in the ring with the dude who he's just screwed if he gets it wrong.  Should sharpen the mind nicely.

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23 hours ago, StompGrind said:

Jon beat up Reyes legs pretty good but that's about it and i think a lot of that damage was done via clashing shins which they both did quite a bit in the early rds. Jon landed a few clean light punches & low kicks the entire fight that got Reyes attention here and there but nothing that really hurt him. 

Jon was in survival mode at least twice if not three or four times when he got clipped in the fight but he was able to hold on, sprint for dear life, block/evade & make Reyes waste energy chasing and missing looking for that clean follow-ups to put him away that never came.  After these exchanges Jon did pressure Reyes but Reyes realized he needed to stop taking the bait get on his bike & pose enough of a counter pot shot threat outside that Jon wouldn't rush him and take advantage of him while he recovered from those outputs. 

The only time Jon had Reyes in any trouble is when he took his back and got a hook in but he was able to get back up before Jon could establish position & unleash GnP. So that was a wash there in the grappling exchanges. They both wasted energy & nothing happened damage wise or submission threat wise. 

Jon was definitely out pointed & more beat up after the fight. Reyes was basically only more tired. 

Despite the controversy it was a really interesting match-up technically with their different skills, strategic approaches, the surges, counter surges with the energy output & recovery tactics. 

The thing that impressed me most about Reyes was his ability to completely shut down and dismantle Jon's early feel out long game with his teeps, side kicks, spinning backs & pawing. Besides the nice punches Reyes landed the shin clashing really threw Jon off balance and shut down Jon's linear kicking game down early so he had to rely more on his defense, long boxing, some round kicks and wrestling earlier than he would have. 

The thing that impressed me most with Jon was his defensive ability to survive after getting cracked & hurt a few times early and his ability to continue to press all through large portions of the fight to sap Reyes & keep him at bay along with posing the TD threat at the right moments to limit Reyes from taking over. 

 

I found myself wondering what enables Jones to move so little and keep pressing without using much energy. It is probably due to his td threat.

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33 minutes ago, Bubba_Sparks said:

Just get Rogan to judge the fights.  Then he has to stand in the ring with the dude who he's just screwed if he gets it wrong.  Should sharpen the mind nicely.

lol, everyone would just throw leg kicks from here on out if that happened.

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30 minutes ago, DoomPatrol said:

I found myself wondering what enables Jones to move so little and keep pressing without using much energy. It is probably due to his td threat.

lol, I think it has more to do with the threat of getting eye poked (Not joking).

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2 hours ago, DoomPatrol said:

I found myself wondering what enables Jones to move so little and keep pressing without using much energy. It is probably due to his td threat.

That and the threat of eye pokes ?

 

1 hour ago, VertFTW said:

lol, I think it has more to do with the threat of getting eye poked (Not joking).

Lol great minds. 

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Watched the fight again. Observation on how to catch Jon clean and put him to sleep. Was around the 3rd rd i think. 

When Jon presses in orthodox and tries to land that lazy plodding right straight & Reyes slips outside then uppercuts to lift him if he throws the right hook immediately right after instead of kinda of a push/shove he did. If he just throws it hard enough to shift.sway Jon into his left side so Jon turns his body and leands right & back to slip the left straight and retreat from the power as he always does if Reyes throws his left straight looking like a head shot then changes it into a fast enough body shot to slump Jon and bring his defense down as Jon leans away to dart away in his escape he can land a hard flush left high roundhouse kick right on the face with no defensive or only his right hand to block it. 

Jon has this tenancy when he over pressures and gets caught with a shot to slip and turn as he leans away and backs out. It opens him up for high round kicks because he's sideways and leaning to one side. 

Jon tends to keep at least one hand up as he does his turn n lean sprint away maneuver but if you can get that slumping reaction from a threatened body shot and get him to bring his elbow down as he retreats he'll retreat right out into a hard left shin to the face and if you he throw it Rutten hard & fast past center line it'll go right through his defense whether he has his hand up or not because he has his elbow down trying to protect his body. 

gettyimages-1204970742-e1581258508141.jp

Reyes did turn him with the heavy right hook at one point during the fight that turned Jon sideways retreating out into roundhouse range & he did throw a hard high kick but Jon partially blocked it. If he can get more of a slump reaction first and immediately time a very fast and hard roundhouse way past center line he'll decapitate him and it won't even really matter if Jon is blocking or not it's still gonna rock him very bad. 

Drawing set-ups to speedy one shots probably not gonna work to finish Jon. You need set-up combinations with a mix of different tools/targets both quick and hard with little time & broken rhythm in between the shots so as he's in full defensive reaction mode it's leading him into being mistaken which is which so you can land clean hard shots he doesn't see coming. 

Edited by StompGrind
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Reyes 3-2 over Pico, only boxing judges and Top20 tacos could see it differently.

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13 hours ago, StompGrind said:

Watched the fight again. Observation on how to catch Jon clean and put him to sleep. Was around the 3rd rd i think. 

When Jon presses in orthodox and tries to land that lazy plodding right straight & Reyes slips outside then uppercuts to lift him if he throws the right hook immediately right after instead of kinda of a push/shove he did. If he just throws it hard enough to shift.sway Jon into his left side so Jon turns his body and leands right & back to slip the left straight and retreat from the power as he always does if Reyes throws his left straight looking like a head shot then changes it into a fast enough body shot to slump Jon and bring his defense down as Jon leans away to dart away in his escape he can land a hard flush left high roundhouse kick right on the face with no defensive or only his right hand to block it. 

Jon has this tenancy when he over pressures and gets caught with a shot to slip and turn as he leans away and backs out. It opens him up for high round kicks because he's sideways and leaning to one side. 

Jon tends to keep at least one hand up as he does his turn n lean sprint away maneuver but if you can get that slumping reaction from a threatened body shot and get him to bring his elbow down as he retreats he'll retreat right out into a hard left shin to the face and if you he throw it Rutten hard & fast past center line it'll go right through his defense whether he has his hand up or not because he has his elbow down trying to protect his body. 

gettyimages-1204970742-e1581258508141.jp

Reyes did turn him with the heavy right hook at one point during the fight that turned Jon sideways retreating out into roundhouse range & he did throw a hard high kick but Jon partially blocked it. If he can get more of a slump reaction first and immediately time a very fast and hard roundhouse way past center line he'll decapitate him and it won't even really matter if Jon is blocking or not it's still gonna rock him very bad. 

Drawing set-ups to speedy one shots probably not gonna work to finish Jon. You need set-up combinations with a mix of different tools/targets both quick and hard with little time & broken rhythm in between the shots so as he's in full defensive reaction mode it's leading him into being mistaken which is which so you can land clean hard shots he doesn't see coming. 

Now this is what I'd like to see more on this forum ☝️

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10 hours ago, juice64011 said:

?vOXHgch.jpg

Who wrote that? The judges' scores are handwritten, but the final result is done by computer. That's strange. I wonder what the procedure is.

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