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Capitalism: A Love Story


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Anybody seen this yet? Good movie. Although Moore isn't a particular favourite of mine' date=' this movie is pretty spot on. Will give you a reality check into the evil of capitalism.....

 

Thoughts on the movie, capitalism folks?[/quote']

 

 

Give us some cliffs, have not seen it.

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Give us some cliffs' date=' have not seen it.[/quote']

 

Cliffs eh?

 

Well, it's pretty much Moore citing examples of how the capitalist mentality has created the largest disctinction between the rich, and poor, we've ever seen. Talks alot about Wall Street, and its influence on politics and big business.....

 

Talk about how in the last 20 years, the richest people on the planet have gotten rich from "trading" in the perils of the average person. Not tangible product, but things like bad loans, forclosures, etc.....not even real product. How is this happening?

 

I loathe the capitalist mentality, and this movie does a good job of showing why.

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Fast, as a religious man, you've got to be a capitalist hater....there are numerous priests and ministers that in the movie, voice their opinions on the ill of capitalism. And oddly enough, I agree. I don't think their views have anything to do with faith per se, but simply logic and reasoning.

 

What are your thoughts on capitalism Fast?

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Cliffs eh?

 

Well' date=' it's pretty much Moore citing examples of how the capitalist mentality has created the largest disctinction between the rich, and poor, we've ever seen. Talks alot about Wall Street, and its influence on politics and big business.....

 

Talk about how in the last 20 years, the richest people on the planet have gotten rich from "trading" in the perils of the average person. Not tangible product, but things like bad loans, forclosures, etc.....not even real product. How is this happening?

 

I loathe the capitalist mentality, and this movie does a good job of showing why.[/quote']

 

Cool I will check this out, sounds insightful.Sounds like Politics at its finest.

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Fast' date=' as a religious man, you've got to be a capitalist hater....there are numerous priests and ministers that in the movie, voice their opinions on the ill of capitalism. And oddly enough, I agree. I don't think their views have anything to do with faith per se, but simply logic and reasoning.

 

What are your thoughts on capitalism Fast?[/quote']

 

Those who do not own capital suffer while the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.Capitalism is the violent negation of democracy, for it is the interests of those who own capital that determine how we live: their jobs, products, services, manufactured culture, and propaganda shape our lives and our minds.

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Those who do not own capital suffer while the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.Capitalism is the violent negation of democracy' date=' for it is the interests of those who own capital that determine how we live: their jobs, products, services, manufactured culture, and propaganda shape our lives and our minds.[/quote']

 

Word.

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Word.

 

That makes me sick! Capitalism is the Love of Money in Action

 

I like this quote

Essentially we have a law which says gambling is illegal but we've allowed Wall Street to do this and they've played with people's money and taken it into these crazy areas of derivatives," Moore told an audience in Venice.

 

 

It is actually anti-Christian because it fails to protect the poor.

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That makes me sick! Capitalism is the Love of Money in Action

 

I like this quote

Essentially we have a law which says gambling is illegal but we've allowed Wall Street to do this and they've played with people's money and taken it into these crazy areas of derivatives' date='" Moore told an audience in Venice.

 

 

It is actually anti-Christian because it fails to protect the poor.[/quote']

 

It is very much anti-Christian, and even though I'm not a religious man, can see why - and accept the logic and reasoning behind it.

 

It's unbelievable that we allow people to run our economic system like this. Truly one of the biggest jokes against mankind in our history.....

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It is very much anti-Christian' date=' and even though I'm not a religious man, can see why - and accept the logic and reasoning behind it.

 

It's unbelievable that we allow people to run our economic system like this. Truly one of the biggest jokes against mankind in our history.....[/quote']

 

The is a quote in teh movie you speak of and it goes like this

 

"They need more than just regulation. We need to structure ourselves differently in order to create finance and money, support for jobs, businesses, etc."

 

What it promotes is not good for the people. A Democracy is for the people and by the people! We need to invest were it counts and where it is going to benefit the people, all people!

 

Don't even get me started on the bailouts!!!lol

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Cliffs eh?

 

Well' date=' it's pretty much Moore citing examples of how the capitalist mentality has created the largest disctinction between the rich, and poor, we've ever seen. Talks alot about Wall Street, and its influence on politics and big business.....

 

Talk about how in the last 20 years, the richest people on the planet have gotten rich from "trading" in the perils of the average person. Not tangible product, but things like bad loans, forclosures, etc.....not even real product. How is this happening?

 

I loathe the capitalist mentality, and this movie does a good job of showing why.[/quote']

 

This movie is just the most ridiculous POS created in years. I love how Mr. Moore thumbs his nose at everyone and makes a movie about the evil of capitalism while he makes millions off the movie because of the very system he snubs.

 

My question to you is if you "loathe" capitalism so much what system would you prefer? Socialism, Communism? Both systems have been proven ineffective over the long term. I am not going to stand here and tell you that Capitalism is an infallible system, because being that it is man made there are certainly flaws, but any economist will tell you that it is the most effective system for generating wealth, and that wealth ends up in everyone?s pocket hence why American's standard of living far outpaces nearly every other country in the world.

 

We could just live in the pre-collapse Soviet Union where the divide between rich and poor was the Government being ultra wealthy and everyone else living in squalor. We can look to so many socialist places around the world that are slowly abandoning such ideas because they cannot hope to compete in a global market. We can look to China who is quickly becoming one of the most capitalist nations on the planet because they figured out that the system works.

 

Do you ever wonder why the vast majority of innovation and technology is created in America? You have it, because we operate a capitalist society that encourages new ideas rather than suffocating them. What?s the purpose of working hard if the government takes everything you worked hard to earn?

 

Your comments are ignorant at best, read a book from time to time. Better yet get a college education or at least broaden you views to more than just MTV and garbage created by Dbags like Mr. Moore. The oversimplified idea of how the stock market functions is completely incorrect and simple minded. It?s unfortunate that people can be as uninformed as you. Just remember when you paid money to watch this trash Michael Moore just benefited from capitalism... the system that you and he seem to hate so much.

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This movie is just the most ridiculous POS created in years. I love how Mr. Moore thumbs his nose at everyone and makes a movie about the evil of capitalism while he makes millions off the movie because of the very system he snubs.

 

My question to you is if you "loathe" capitalism so much what system would you prefer? Socialism' date=' Communism? Both systems have been proven ineffective over the long term. I am not going to stand here and tell you that Capitalism is an infallible system, because being that it is man made there are certainly flaws, but any economist will tell you that it is the most effective system for generating wealth, and that wealth ends up in everyone?s pocket hence why American's standard of living far outpaces nearly every other country in the world.

 

We could just live in the pre-collapse Soviet Union where the divide between rich and poor was the Government being ultra wealthy and everyone else living in squalor. We can look to so many socialist places around the world that are slowly abandoning such ideas because they cannot hope to compete in a global market. We can look to China who is quickly becoming one of the most capitalist nations on the planet because they figured out that the system works.

 

Do you ever wonder why the vast majority of innovation and technology is created in America? You have it, because we operate a capitalist society that encourages new ideas rather than suffocating them. What?s the purpose of working hard if the government takes everything you worked hard to earn?

 

Your comments are ignorant at best, read a book from time to time. Better yet get a college education or at least broaden you views to more than just MTV and garbage created by Dbags like Mr. Moore. The oversimplified idea of how the stock market functions is completely incorrect and simple minded. It?s unfortunate that people can be as uninformed as you. Just remember when you paid money to watch this trash Michael Moore just benefited from capitalism... the system that you and he seem to hate so much.[/quote']

 

4234705937_37d34b7590.jpg

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I really don't see how capitalism has failed. for w/e reason people always look to gov't and economy to solve their problems. its not a system for creating a utopian society

 

capitalism is harsh and competitive but it's a natural outlook on economics. its also worth noting that the US practices too much corporate welfare also.

 

too big to fail - BS

gov't subsidies - BS

 

 

i haven't seen the movie but im sure moore paints it in the worst possible light with out addressing anyhting positive. i bet he addresses stuff like guilds and business groups, but the consumer has the same opportunity to band together and destroy a business. today's culture is stupid because instead of coming together to work effectively they appeal to the gov't as helpless victims.

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You guys probably don't want to hear it, but I couldn't disagree more. What Michael Moore describes in his movie is not free-market capitalism by any stretch of the imagination. He does accurately depict the economic system as it exists in America today, and this is commonly understood by most people to be capitalism, but it is not. Our system today is centrally planned and heavily regulated. I have heard it better described as political capitalism or corporatism, and it is moving more toward something more akin to socialism or fascism every day.

 

If you are in fact as interested in economics as you seem to be by your discussion I would encourage you to read Economics In One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt, just as a good place to start.

 

Although I am not a religious man, I would argue that free-market capitalism is more consistent with Christianity than any other system. Only when people are free to keep the fruits of their labor are they inclined toward true charity and philanthropy. State sponsored welfare programs financed through the confiscation of wealth are not moral.

 

here's another good place to start if you are at all interested in the opposite side of the argument that Michael Moore makes in his film:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/triumph-of-socialism134.html

 

I certainly understand that my perspective is not a popular one in American pop-culture today, but if you are actually interested in economics and classical liberal theory you will not find much about it on the television or in Michael Moore's films.

 

peace

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I really don't see how capitalism has failed. for w/e reason people always look to gov't and economy to solve their problems. its not a system for creating a utopian society

 

capitalism is harsh and competitive but it's a natural outlook on economics. its also worth noting that the US practices too much corporate welfare also.

 

too big to fail - BS

gov't subsidies - BS

 

 

i haven't seen the movie but im sure moore paints it in the worst possible light with out addressing anyhting positive. i bet he addresses stuff like guilds and business groups' date=' but the consumer has the same opportunity to band together and destroy a business. today's culture is stupid because instead of coming together to work effectively they appeal to the gov't as helpless victims.[/quote']

 

Make a list of all the benefits of capitalism

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Make a list of all the benefits of capitalism

 

good economic opportunities, well run business thrive, poor ones fail, wealth building, job creation, availability of goods, competitive work force, merit based success, socioeconomic mobility

 

blah blah blah

 

not saying its going to generate a utopian society, but nothing is.

 

its like this BS with big gov't today people think the gov't should regulate TV and junk food, tomorrow the internet and cell phones, in 25 years the gov't will be the big brother that we all appeal to when ever something goes wrong.

 

ITS LIFE PEOPLE quit *****ing and deal.

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VinceBlack,

 

You are right on the money. After reading the nonsense that motivated your response, I became a forum member just so I could add my $.02. The greatest gaps that exist between rich and poor are in Communist countries like Cuba and North Korea. Maybe Lard Lad should go to North Korea and try to make documentaries. It would be a great weight-loss program for him unless he joined the military which steals foreign aid from the starving population.

Do people even read anymore? How has it escaped them that the Marxist experiment is now a demonstrable failure? At least in capitalist systems most people have the choice whether they want to better their lives or not. I know an doctor who came from SE Asia to America a couple decades ago with his wife, son, $30, choppy English, and a dream to become what would have been impossible under an oppressive economic system. Ask him about freedom!

America would help its poor by returning to a pure capitalist system. Unfortunately, we've more than flirted with socialism, having granted ample time and opportunity for it to prove itself. Yet, beyond all doubt, what the Marxist experiment in "government compassion" and central management has shown is that bureaucrats almost always succumb to the temptation to serve their own interest above the interests of the poor. The experiment always grows into a monstrosity that quickly loses sight of original goals.

God help a country that is full of idiots who hate the freedoms that made it great. I say that if you don't like capitalism get the hell out of our country and take our freedom-hating politicians with you.

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VinceBlack' date='

 

You are right on the money. After reading the nonsense that motivated your response, I became a forum member just so I could add my $.02. The greatest gaps that exist between rich and poor are in Communist countries like Cuba and North Korea. Maybe Lard Lad should go to North Korea and try to make documentaries. It would be a great weight-loss program for him unless he joined the military which steals foreign aid from the starving population.

Do people even read anymore? How has it escaped them that the Marxist experiment is now a demonstrable failure? At least in capitalist systems most people have the choice whether they want to better their lives or not. I know an doctor who came from SE Asia to America a couple decades ago with his wife, son, $30, choppy English, and a dream to become what would have been impossible under an oppressive economic system. Ask him about freedom!

America would help its poor by returning to a pure capitalist system. Unfortunately, we've more than flirted with socialism, having granted ample time and opportunity for it to prove itself. Yet, beyond all doubt, what the Marxist experiment in "government compassion" and central management has shown is that bureaucrats almost always succumb to the temptation to serve their own interest above the interests of the poor. The experiment always grows into a monstrosity that quickly loses sight of original goals.

God help a country that is full of idiots who hate the freedoms that made it great. I say that if you don't like capitalism get the hell out of our country and take our freedom-hating politicians with you.[/quote']

 

You couldn't have said it any better, the last government sponsored program (Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac) sent us into a financial crisis and is now getting an infinite amount of tax dollars to keep it afloat, Big Bad Banks or Big Bad government

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*sigh*

 

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. I can't STAND the capitalist mentality.

 

It's ALL about ME ME ME. Pure unbridled capitalism is NOT a good idea. It just screws the majority over.

 

If I had to identify myself with a label, I'd say I am closer to a socialist that a capitalist. But I'm not for total socialism. I think the best compromise between the two economic philosophies is what I call a form of.."Socialized Capitalism"

 

Which basically means that if you put in your 40 hours a week. You should be able to support yourself to a minimum standard.

 

What is the minimum?

 

I'd say...it's the ability to..

 

Pay rent for a month on a 1 bedroom or studio apartment

Put gas in your car, enough to get to work (insurance for car...etc)

Feed yourself

Keep your utilities on

 

And that's about it. The basics...nothing extravagant. But if you are out there doing the work you should be compensated to a minimum standard.

 

Where does the capitalism part come in?

 

Well if you work more hours...you GET more...but that extra time..SHOULD NOT BE NECESSARY TO KEEP YOURSELF ALIVE...as it is in TODAYS system...people work 70 or more hours a WEEK just to survive. THAT IS ******** CAPITALIST ******* stuff. The extra hours you put in should be to better your situation or provide for recreation.

 

Work a better job..ie...lawyer..doctor...etc. You obviously would get paid more.

 

That's a rough outline of what system I advocate.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

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*sigh*

 

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. I can't STAND the capitalist mentality.

 

It's ALL about ME ME ME. Pure unbridled capitalism is NOT a good idea. It just screws the majority over.

 

If I had to identify myself with a label' date=' I'd say I am closer to a socialist that a capitalist. But I'm not for total socialism. I think the best compromise between the two economic philosophies is what I call a form of.."Socialized Capitalism"

 

Which basically means that if you put in your 40 hours a week. You should be able to support yourself to a minimum standard.

 

What is the minimum?

 

I'd say...it's the ability to..

 

Pay rent for a month on a 1 bedroom or studio apartment

Put gas in your car, enough to get to work (insurance for car...etc)

Feed yourself

Keep your utilities on

 

And that's about it. The basics...nothing extravagant. But if you are out there doing the work you should be compensated to a minimum standard.

 

Where does the capitalism part come in?

 

Well if you work more hours...you GET more...but that extra time..SHOULD NOT BE NECESSARY TO KEEP YOURSELF ALIVE...as it is in TODAYS system...people work 70 or more hours a WEEK just to survive. THAT IS ******** CAPITALIST ******* stuff. The extra hours you put in should be to better your situation or provide for recreation.

 

Work a better job..ie...lawyer..doctor...etc. You obviously would get paid more.

 

That's a rough outline of what system I advocate.

 

Cheers

 

-DR[/quote']

 

the cost of living is driven up by bureaucracy, cost is driven up by others costs and inflation. ultimately the gov't is the reason why cost is going up faster than wages. socialism is just another expense on the system. money comes from somewhere, probably taxes and that is driving up the cost. i've worked some bad jobs and ive never had much money to spare, but never had to work 70 hours to survive. if you are working 70 a week and not able to eat and have a place to live then you are doing something wrong.

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This movie is just the most ridiculous POS created in years. I love how Mr. Moore thumbs his nose at everyone and makes a movie about the evil of capitalism while he makes millions off the movie because of the very system he snubs.

 

My question to you is if you "loathe" capitalism so much what system would you prefer? Socialism' date=' Communism? Both systems have been proven ineffective over the long term. I am not going to stand here and tell you that Capitalism is an infallible system, because being that it is man made there are certainly flaws, but any economist will tell you that it is the most effective system for generating wealth, and that wealth ends up in everyone?s pocket hence why American's standard of living far outpaces nearly every other country in the world.

 

We could just live in the pre-collapse Soviet Union where the divide between rich and poor was the Government being ultra wealthy and everyone else living in squalor. We can look to so many socialist places around the world that are slowly abandoning such ideas because they cannot hope to compete in a global market. We can look to China who is quickly becoming one of the most capitalist nations on the planet because they figured out that the system works.

 

Do you ever wonder why the vast majority of innovation and technology is created in America? You have it, because we operate a capitalist society that encourages new ideas rather than suffocating them. What?s the purpose of working hard if the government takes everything you worked hard to earn?

 

Your comments are ignorant at best, read a book from time to time. Better yet get a college education or at least broaden you views to more than just MTV and garbage created by Dbags like Mr. Moore. The oversimplified idea of how the stock market functions is completely incorrect and simple minded. It?s unfortunate that people can be as uninformed as you. Just remember when you paid money to watch this trash Michael Moore just benefited from capitalism... the system that you and he seem to hate so much.[/quote']

 

You're wrong here. His anger against capitalism isn't from tangible product (like his movie), but systems of debt, fake credit, stock market theory.....watch the movie man.

 

And I'm personally for Democracy, the principles of which the founding fathers of the United States of America built it on. They even predicted the evils of the current system.......

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You guys probably don't want to hear it' date=' but I couldn't disagree more. What Michael Moore describes in his movie is not free-market capitalism by any stretch of the imagination. He does accurately depict the economic system as it exists in America today, and this is commonly understood by most people to be capitalism, but it is not. Our system today is centrally planned and heavily regulated. I have heard it better described as political capitalism or corporatism, and it is moving more toward something more akin to socialism or fascism every day.

 

If you are in fact as interested in economics as you seem to be by your discussion I would encourage you to read Economics In One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt, just as a good place to start.

 

Although I am not a religious man, I would argue that free-market capitalism is more consistent with Christianity than any other system. Only when people are free to keep the fruits of their labor are they inclined toward true charity and philanthropy. State sponsored welfare programs financed through the confiscation of wealth are not moral.

 

here's another good place to start if you are at all interested in the opposite side of the argument that Michael Moore makes in his film:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/triumph-of-socialism134.html

 

I certainly understand that my perspective is not a popular one in American pop-culture today, but if you are actually interested in economics and classical liberal theory you will not find much about it on the television or in Michael Moore's films.

 

peace[/quote']

 

Ayn Rand fan?

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*sigh*

 

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. I can't STAND the capitalist mentality.

 

It's ALL about ME ME ME. Pure unbridled capitalism is NOT a good idea. It just screws the majority over.

 

If I had to identify myself with a label' date=' I'd say I am closer to a socialist that a capitalist. But I'm not for total socialism. I think the best compromise between the two economic philosophies is what I call a form of.."Socialized Capitalism"

 

Which basically means that if you put in your 40 hours a week. You should be able to support yourself to a minimum standard.

 

What is the minimum?

 

I'd say...it's the ability to..

 

Pay rent for a month on a 1 bedroom or studio apartment

Put gas in your car, enough to get to work (insurance for car...etc)

Feed yourself

Keep your utilities on

 

And that's about it. The basics...nothing extravagant. But if you are out there doing the work you should be compensated to a minimum standard.

 

Where does the capitalism part come in?

 

Well if you work more hours...you GET more...but that extra time..SHOULD NOT BE NECESSARY TO KEEP YOURSELF ALIVE...as it is in TODAYS system...people work 70 or more hours a WEEK just to survive. THAT IS ******** CAPITALIST ******* stuff. The extra hours you put in should be to better your situation or provide for recreation.

 

Work a better job..ie...lawyer..doctor...etc. You obviously would get paid more.

 

That's a rough outline of what system I advocate.

 

Cheers

 

-DR[/quote']

 

Again the latest stint with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shows the two together can not coexist.....This thought process is irrational with zero knowledge of economic structure, its just not functional, so have an overwhelming middle to lower class to take care of all the lazy people in the country who don't want to pull their weight that is supported by socialism, with no hope for ever achieving success or a better life because the boundaries set by government control prevent you to do so...Sounds like fun, everyone bend over here comes hope and change

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Moore needs a reality check.

 

Here it is:

 

http://frontpagemag.com/2009/11/03/michael-moore-vs-thomas-sowell-a-hate-story-by-chanda-chisala/

 

 

Thomas Sowell has a PhD in economics. He has forgotten more than an armchair documentarian like Moore will ever know.

 

Case closed.

 

Dude...this article says almost nothing regarding the debate between capitalism and any other system. It's a fluff column by a right wing guy trying to bring down Moore...and it's not even a good "hit piece" at that.

 

It's literally right next to pointless...and IS irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

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the cost of living is driven up by bureaucracy' date=' cost is driven up by others costs and inflation. ultimately the gov't is the reason why cost is going up faster than wages. socialism is just another expense on the system. money comes from somewhere, probably taxes and that is driving up the cost. i've worked some bad jobs and ive never had much money to spare, but never had to work 70 hours to survive. if you are working 70 a week and not able to eat and have a place to live then you are doing something wrong.[/quote']

 

You got that right! I just started working for the government, on the state level, 6 months ago. The level of waste is absolutely astonishing. We have the lowest quality workers playing the system it absolutely disgusts me. In fact the amount of wasted time would get you fired from Walmart! We don't even have a timeclock at work, its on the honor system!

 

If we really wanted to save our citizens literally billions in taxes create a more efficient system for its agencies. It is a travesty watching the flagrant waste that goes on here.

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Again the latest stint with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shows the two together can not coexist.....This thought process is irrational with zero knowledge of economic structure' date=' its just not functional, so have an overwhelming middle to lower class to take care of all the lazy people in the country who don't want to pull their weight that is supported by socialism, with no hope for ever achieving success or a better life because the boundaries set by government control prevent you to do so...Sounds like fun, everyone bend over here comes hope and change[/quote']

 

This is difficult to respond to because there isn't much to work with...it's a collection of..abbreviated buzzwords from right wing propaganda. And I'm not attacking you on that..I'm sincerely saying that these generalities don't effectively illustrate what we're talking about.

 

What YOU are referring to here is closer to Communism..NOT Socialism. AND THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. Despite what Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity and the FOX news crowd want to sell you.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

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You got that right! I just started working for the government' date=' on the state level, 6 months ago. The level of waste is absolutely astonishing. We have the lowest quality workers playing the system it absolutely disgusts me. In fact the amount of wasted time would get you fired from Walmart! We don't even have a timeclock at work, its on the honor system!

 

If we really wanted to save our citizens literally billions in taxes create a more efficient system for its agencies. It is a travesty watching the flagrant waste that goes on here.[/quote']

 

Agreed. There is zero accountability anywhere, anymore......sad.

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This is difficult to respond to because there isn't much to work with...it's a collection of..abbreviated buzzwords from right wing propaganda. And I'm not attacking you on that..I'm sincerely saying that these generalities don't effectively illustrate what we're talking about.

 

What YOU are referring to here is closer to Communism..NOT Socialism. AND THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. Despite what Limbaugh' date=' O'Reilly, Hannity and the FOX news crowd want to sell you.

 

Cheers

 

-DR[/quote']

 

No, really its simple Supply and Demand ECN 101, you increase the number of people who now qualify for home mortgages who didn't before with government sponsored programs, that hyper inflate residential prices that cause a false sense of wealth and when the governement does not hold up on their end of the bargain it collapses....Don't write it off as if I hate democrats, debate, back your thoughts and opinions up with facts....tell me how is this not true...It actually sounds like you believe everything you see on TV....Trust me the republican party is on my list two, the bailout money that we approved, shows that Republicans got away from their roots....

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The population needs to be thinned to much more manageable numbers. We are currently way too overpopulated in comparison to our resources and capabilities. How we thin it' date=' who knows...but it needs to happen.[/quote']

 

I agree with this as well. But until religion stops telling husbands what the conditions are for putting their ***** in their wives..we are going to have issues.

 

I think we need to give people an incentive to have only 2 or less children.

 

If couples starting having only 2 children...eventually we would reach a point where our population reaches a sort of balance..where it won't grow beyond a certain fluctuating number.

 

There should also be incentives to have men and women voluntarily sterilized if they make the decision never to have children.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

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No' date=' really its simple Supply and Demand ECN 101, you increase the number of people who now qualify for home mortgages who didn't before with government sponsored programs, that hyper inflate residential prices that cause a false sense of wealth and when the governement does not hold up on their end of the bargain it collapses....Don't write it off as if I hate democrats, debate, back your thoughts and opinions up with facts....tell me how is this not true...It actually sounds like you believe everything you see on TV....Trust me the republican party is on my list two, the bailout money that we approved, shows that Republicans got away from their roots....[/quote']

 

I don't disagree with what you've said here. You are right...if you tell people they have sufficient capital to purchase something that in reality they DO NOT. You are headed for disaster. But that has nothing to do with the virtues of capitalism over a form of socialism or vice-versa.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

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I don't disagree with what you've said here. You are right...if you tell people they have sufficient capital to purchase something that in reality they DO NOT. You are headed for disaster. But that has nothing to do with the virtues of capitalism over a form of socialism or vice-versa.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

 

????? Government sponsored programs have nothing to do with socialism?

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????? Government sponsored programs have nothing to do with socialism?

 

Ahhh..but in your original post you only discussed the current mortgage crisis. I agree there. But that in itself is part of a capitalist venture. It was less about getting people homes..and far more about making people money.

 

Not ALL government programs are bad. For instance. Health care...should not be a FOR PROFIT system. Cancer shouldn't equal dollar signs. If you want to make money in the health and wellness sector...become a doctor...nurse or nutritionist.

 

There is a place for Government oversight and implementation of certain programs. But you have to look at what the larger goal is, or at least what the end result will be and what the cost will be to achieve it.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

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This movie is just the most ridiculous POS created in years. I love how Mr. Moore thumbs his nose at everyone and makes a movie about the evil of capitalism while he makes millions off the movie because of the very system he snubs.

 

My question to you is if you "loathe" capitalism so much what system would you prefer? Socialism' date=' Communism? Both systems have been proven ineffective over the long term. I am not going to stand here and tell you that Capitalism is an infallible system, because being that it is man made there are certainly flaws, but any economist will tell you that it is the most effective system for generating wealth, and that wealth ends up in everyone?s pocket hence why American's standard of living far outpaces nearly every other country in the world.

 

We could just live in the pre-collapse Soviet Union where the divide between rich and poor was the Government being ultra wealthy and everyone else living in squalor. We can look to so many socialist places around the world that are slowly abandoning such ideas because they cannot hope to compete in a global market. We can look to China who is quickly becoming one of the most capitalist nations on the planet because they figured out that the system works.

 

Do you ever wonder why the vast majority of innovation and technology is created in America? You have it, because we operate a capitalist society that encourages new ideas rather than suffocating them. What?s the purpose of working hard if the government takes everything you worked hard to earn?

 

Your comments are ignorant at best, read a book from time to time. Better yet get a college education or at least broaden you views to more than just MTV and garbage created by Dbags like Mr. Moore. The oversimplified idea of how the stock market functions is completely incorrect and simple minded. It?s unfortunate that people can be as uninformed as you. Just remember when you paid money to watch this trash Michael Moore just benefited from capitalism... the system that you and he seem to hate so much.[/quote']

 

Agreed.

 

You guys probably don't want to hear it' date=' but I couldn't disagree more. What Michael Moore describes in his movie is not free-market capitalism by any stretch of the imagination. He does accurately depict the economic system as it exists in America today, and this is commonly understood by most people to be capitalism, but it is not. Our system today is centrally planned and heavily regulated. I have heard it better described as political capitalism or corporatism, and it is moving more toward something more akin to socialism or fascism every day.

 

If you are in fact as interested in economics as you seem to be by your discussion I would encourage you to read Economics In One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt, just as a good place to start.

 

Although I am not a religious man, I would argue that free-market capitalism is more consistent with Christianity than any other system. Only when people are free to keep the fruits of their labor are they inclined toward true charity and philanthropy. State sponsored welfare programs financed through the confiscation of wealth are not moral.

 

here's another good place to start if you are at all interested in the opposite side of the argument that Michael Moore makes in his film:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/triumph-of-socialism134.html

 

I certainly understand that my perspective is not a popular one in American pop-culture today, but if you are actually interested in economics and classical liberal theory you will not find much about it on the television or in Michael Moore's films.

 

peace[/quote']

 

Agreed.

 

VinceBlack' date='

 

You are right on the money. After reading the nonsense that motivated your response, I became a forum member just so I could add my $.02. The greatest gaps that exist between rich and poor are in Communist countries like Cuba and North Korea. Maybe Lard Lad should go to North Korea and try to make documentaries. It would be a great weight-loss program for him unless he joined the military which steals foreign aid from the starving population.

Do people even read anymore? How has it escaped them that the Marxist experiment is now a demonstrable failure? At least in capitalist systems most people have the choice whether they want to better their lives or not. I know an doctor who came from SE Asia to America a couple decades ago with his wife, son, $30, choppy English, and a dream to become what would have been impossible under an oppressive economic system. Ask him about freedom!

America would help its poor by returning to a pure capitalist system. Unfortunately, we've more than flirted with socialism, having granted ample time and opportunity for it to prove itself. Yet, beyond all doubt, what the Marxist experiment in "government compassion" and central management has shown is that bureaucrats almost always succumb to the temptation to serve their own interest above the interests of the poor. The experiment always grows into a monstrosity that quickly loses sight of original goals.

God help a country that is full of idiots who hate the freedoms that made it great. I say that if you don't like capitalism get the hell out of our country and take our freedom-hating politicians with you.[/quote']

 

Agreed!

 

Well said all of you! congrats.gif

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Ahhh..but in your original post you only discussed the current mortgage crisis. I agree there. But that in itself is part of a capitalist venture. It was less about getting people homes..and far more about making people money.

 

Not ALL government programs are bad. For instance. Health care...should not be a FOR PROFIT system. Cancer shouldn't equal dollar signs. If you want to make money in the health and wellness sector...become a doctor...nurse or nutritionist.

 

There is a place for Government oversight and implementation of certain programs. But you have to look at what the larger goal is' date=' or at least what the end result will be and what the cost will be to achieve it.

 

Cheers

 

-DR[/quote']

 

But the government sponsored healthcare system, looks at a 70 year old woman and says well ma'am that surgery you need to save your life really is worth the money we would have to spend to save, well because you are going to die soon anyway.....Absolutly not, it is more inhumane to look at someone as a cost/benefit analysis.....I know your argument, "It won't be like that" name an american ran government sponsored program that hasn't failed miserably....social security, medicare, medicaid......So yeah it does boil down to that, these programs are all broke and when they go broke the government will either deny coverage or increase taxes......Right or Wrong?...and before you say that is something you probably heard on fox news, consider the fact that I may analyze the world with out environmental factors swaying my opinions

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I don't disagree with what you've said here. You are right...if you tell people they have sufficient capital to purchase something that in reality they DO NOT. You are headed for disaster. But that has nothing to do with the virtues of capitalism over a form of socialism or vice-versa.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

 

I think a part of this arguement thats been missed is more the idea of BIG BUSINESS & BIG GOVERNMENT. When you funnel huge amounts of money to any business whether its government in the form of taxes or revenue in the form of sales then the standard of living WILL go down over time. If you keep your dollars circulating locally your community will thrive, FACT.

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But the government sponsored healthcare system' date=' looks at a 70 year old woman and says well ma'am that surgery you need to save your life really is worth the money we would have to spend to save, well because you are going to die soon anyway.....Absolutly not, it is more inhumane to look at someone as a cost/benefit analysis.....I know your argument, "It won't be like that" name an american ran government sponsored program that hasn't failed miserably....social security, medicare, medicaid......So yeah it does boil down to that, these programs are all broke and when they go broke the government will either deny coverage or increase taxes......Right or Wrong?...and before you say that is something you probably heard on fox news, consider the fact that I may analyze the world with out environmental factors swaying my opinions[/quote']

 

First I do believe you may have independently come to these determinations.

 

As for how the healthcare system would look at a 70 year old woman. Ask how the elderly are treated in Canada, Spain, France, Japan..etc. I concede that there would PROBABLY be an element of cost/benefit analysis in the system. However this is NOT to say that the individual in question would not receive assistance. No one would be told..."sorry you're screwed."

 

BUT as it stands today? THAT'S EXACTLY HOW IT IS. In today's system there isn't a cost/benefit analysis. It never GETS to the benefit part...it's all COST. Because that is what healthcare is in the country..and opportunity to garner a profit..we have to fundamentally alter our collective conception of what healthcare IS. The GOAL should NOT be about money. It should be about improving quality of life and making people well.

 

As for cost. We CAN pay for it. But there is ridiculous waste and inefficiency in the system. And out tax structure SHOULD be changed..some should pay more..others less.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

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But the government sponsored healthcare system' date=' looks at a 70 year old woman and says well ma'am that surgery you need to save your life really is worth the money we would have to spend to save, well because you are going to die soon anyway.....Absolutly not, it is more inhumane to look at someone as a cost/benefit analysis.....I know your argument, "It won't be like that" name an american ran government sponsored program that hasn't failed miserably....social security, medicare, medicaid......So yeah it does boil down to that, these programs are all broke and when they go broke the government will either deny coverage or increase taxes......Right or Wrong?...and before you say that is something you probably heard on fox news, consider the fact that I may analyze the world with out environmental factors swaying my opinions[/quote']

 

To add a bit to your point the government is by its very nature a bloated and inefficient organization. You let a bunch of politicians set up something to deal with a situation that they have no clue about and expect it to run smoothly. Government is wasteful because in a capitalist society it operates outside the bounds of the free market system in essence proving that deviation from the core capitalistic principals leads to waste and inefficiency. Welcome to the awesome power of bureaucracy.

 

Is there any doubt why the majority of Americans are scared out of there pants with nothing short of a government takeover of healthcare, 1\6th of the economy? Based on historical evidence the government has done a bang up job with everything its gotten its hands on, ie. Social security, Medicare, etc. and now they want this? I for one say no sir I will not stand behind that.

 

That?s not to say that Americas healthcare system doesn?t need an overhaul, it just needs a more realistic approach by becoming more efficient not more bloated and adding more places for people to get there hands into it.

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To add a bit to your point the government is by its very nature a bloated and inefficient organization. You let a bunch of politicians set up something to deal with a situation that they have no clue about and expect it to run smoothly. Government is wasteful because in a capitalist society it operates outside the bounds of the free market system in essence proving that deviation from the core capitalistic principals leads to waste and inefficiency. Welcome to the awesome power of bureaucracy.

 

Is there any doubt why the majority of Americans are scared out of there pants with nothing short of a government takeover of healthcare' date=' 1\6th of the economy? Based on historical evidence the government has done a bang up job with everything its gotten its hands on, ie. Social security, Medicare, etc. and now they want this? I for one say no sir I will not stand behind that.

 

That?s not to say that Americas healthcare system doesn?t need an overhaul, it just needs a more realistic approach by becoming more efficient not more bloated and adding more places for people to get there hands into it.[/quote']

 

Well-played sir

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To add a bit to your point the government is by its very nature a bloated and inefficient organization. You let a bunch of politicians set up something to deal with a situation that they have no clue about and expect it to run smoothly. Government is wasteful because in a capitalist society it operates outside the bounds of the free market system in essence proving that deviation from the core capitalistic principals leads to waste and inefficiency. Welcome to the awesome power of bureaucracy.

 

Is there any doubt why the majority of Americans are scared out of there pants with nothing short of a government takeover of healthcare' date=' 1\6th of the economy? Based on historical evidence the government has done a bang up job with everything its gotten its hands on, ie. Social security, Medicare, etc. and now they want this? I for one say no sir I will not stand behind that.

 

That?s not to say that Americas healthcare system doesn?t need an overhaul, it just needs a more realistic approach by becoming more efficient not more bloated and adding more places for people to get there hands into it.[/quote']

 

 

the problem is that the subject has been drummed up soo much and the radical dems have emotionalized the issue that many Americans don't care how the healthcare system is changed, they just believe it should change. 2000 pages of pork, BS and bureaucracy don't matter its CHANGE NOW! not change right.

 

as if the issue would be revisited again if the gov't took too much ground in health care.

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the problem is that the subject has been drummed up soo much and the radical dems have emotionalized the issue that many Americans don't care how the healthcare system is changed' date=' they just believe it should change. 2000 pages of pork, BS and bureaucracy don't matter its CHANGE NOW! not change right.

 

as if the issue would be revisited again if the gov't took too much ground in health care.[/quote']

 

 

Okay, sorry man. I agree with you on a fair amount of MMA stuff. But THIS, I feel I have to say something. The "emotionalized" issue you address is completely backwards, and at BEST total hypocrisy.

 

Republicans and Conservatives LIVE BY EMOTION.

 

This BS "Tea party" crowd. Limbaugh, O'Reilly..GLENN ****ING BECK that walking disease.

 

"I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!"

"WATER THE TREE OF LIBERTY WITH THE BLOOD OF TYRANTS."

"THEY WANT TO KILL GRANDMA"

"DEATH PANELS"

"COMMUNIST/SOCIALIST" (which is in ITSELF a loaded word that people don't intellectualize)

"PALS AROUND WITH TERRORISTS"

"KILL HIM"

 

I could literally go on and on. This stuff is either blatant lies...or extremist talk..but ALL of it is EMOTIONALLY CHARGED. BS from the right.

 

So no...the conservatives, and republicans LIVE off fooling idiots, and manipulating emotions through fear. Not the left. The dems and liberals have no balls, and are wrong on things like gun control, death penalty and a few other things. But the problem is THEY at least try to have a rational conversation...while the R's spew lies and sensationalism.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

 

P.S. Sorry man..I just...had to say that

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