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Shogun pound for pound best...


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If Shogun can decisively beat Machida, it would be clear that the Shogun of Pride is back. If that is the case, and that he is able to keep his form for a while I truly believe that he could be considered the greatest MMA fighter ever. The biggest threat is Machida, undoubtedly. If he manages to take care of him, I dont see anyone else who can even match him, he will be the champion for a while, he will dominate the LHW's, which is arguably, the toughest division in MMA.

 

I am a Shogun fan, but I prefer Machida (and hoping he wins the rematch). But if he does, convincingly, then I am prepared to call him the best, or at least put him up there with BJ and Fedor. Not simply because of his performance against Machida, but the way he fights. It reminds me of a more skilled, and conditioned W.Silva, except he is far younger and has a much longer future.

 

I would fear for the rest of the fighters of the division if Shogun was to take the belt.

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Iv been a massive shogun fan for years(shame to say i have his tshirts and fightshorts) but even i cant say he would be pound for pound best. He needs at least 3-4 more convincing victories against top opposition.

 

Of course

 

But I am almost certain he would deal with any opponent pretty damn convincingly.

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Shogun is a great fighter and he fought his heart out against Machida but to call him the best ever is a stretch of the imagination. Reguardless of how anyone felt the out come of his failed attempt at the title went he didn't walk through Machida and ended up losing in the end.

 

As great as he is saying that he is the best ever is a joke, A. Silva would destroy Shogun at LHW imo. Thats why I'm hoping that he takes the belt in the rematch so Silva can make a run against him and finally put the question of superiority to bed for me.

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If Shogun wins at UFC 13 A.B. :rolleyes:

He's going to face the winner of Rampage/Evans and IDK if he could win [Yes I know he knocked Rampage out before]

 

I'd be willing to put money down that he could put away Rashad with ease. After watching his fight with Silva, I don't have much faith in the guy's ability to bang with a striker like Rua. Not to mention, if he tried to take it to the ground like he did against Silva, I can see him getting punished. Rua has a deadly ground game.

 

Unfortunately, I can see somewhat of the same outcome if he were to face Rampage. The first problem would be leg kicks. If Rampage doesn't check Rua's kicks, he's going to find himself in a repeat of the Forrest fight, only Rua has the knock-out power to put him to sleep once he's limping around on one leg. He'll smell the blood. The second problem is the clinch. I'm sure most people have seen their Pride fight. Rua completely manhandled Jackson in that muay thai clinch. I was cringing for the guy the whole time. I'm not saying Jackson doesn't stand a chance, because both fighters have had a lot of time to grow and evolve since that time, but I'm given the idea that he has the uphill battle here, for sure.

 

Now, on to the pound-for-pound argument. Anderson Silva. If Rua beats Machida, and Machida gets knocked out of the contention spot, it's only a matter of time before Silva comes knocking at the door. It would take Dana about 10 seconds to decide whether or not to actualize this super-fight. Now, if Rua could get past Silva, which is maybe the biggest "if" in the history of the UFC, he'd be in the argument for pound-for-pound best, right alongside Emelianenko, GSP, and Penn.

 

I don't want to hypothesize on this Silva vs. Rua scenario, because depending on which Rua shows up, I think it could be a lot closer than people might think. Although, I'll be honest that the prospect of that fight has me drooling all over myself.

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Why is everyvone obsessed with this pound for pound thing? This is just stupid. p4p is based on opinions and frankly I think they are just using this term to hype fighters even more.

 

It's just interesting to speculate on these things when you have fighter like Emelianenko' date=' GSP, Silva, and Penn, who've consistently dominated their weight class for such a long time.

 

People have always had an obsession with being [i']the best[/i], and I don't necessarily think that the pound-for-pound discussion is a bad thing. These guys use that mentality and have you used it their whole careers to be as good as they are. There's nothing wrong with a little healthy debate. Besides, we all know they're the best in their divisions, so if we didn't talk about pound-for-pound best in regards to these fighters, all we'd be able to discuss is that they're the best in their division.

 

Just a thought.

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It's just interesting to speculate on these things when you have fighter like Emelianenko' date=' GSP, Silva, and Penn, who've consistently dominated their weight class for such a long time.

 

People have always had an obsession with being [i']the best[/i], and I don't necessarily think that the pound-for-pound discussion is a bad thing. These guys use that mentality and have you used it their whole careers to be as good as they are. There's nothing wrong with a little healthy debate. Besides, we all know they're the best in their divisions, so if we didn't talk about pound-for-pound best in regards to these fighters, all we'd be able to discuss is that they're the best in their division.

 

Just a thought.

 

The only way of telling who is better is by actually making them fight each other and obviously this wount happen so p4p is completly irrelevant in my opinion.

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If Shogun beats Machida' date=' then look for a super fight between A. Silva and Shogun. And then Silva will show you who the P4P best is.[/quote']

 

Exactly,

 

I have massive respect for shogun and what he?s accomplished but,

Anderson Silva will win that fight, although i think it will got to decision.

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The only way of telling who is better is by actually making them fight each other and obviously this wount happen so p4p is completly irrelevant in my opinion.

 

I agree totally and also get tired of the p4p b.s. especially when it can be established in a weak division such as MW. I don't understand how fighting in a weak (actually the weakest arguably next to LW) division and holding the belt as the champion makes you the best p4p fighter in the world. Sure he's stepped up to LHW but the bottom of that division or middle at best in beating a horrible looking Griffen.

 

I think it's a hype thing as well but understand why it's debated; just something else to talk about until the fights happen:p

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I agree totally and also get tired of the p4p b.s. especially when it can be established in a weak division such as MW. I don't understand how fighting in a weak (actually the weakest arguably next to LW) division and holding the belt as the champion makes you the best p4p fighter in the world. Sure he's stepped up to LHW but the bottom of that division or middle at best in beating a horrible looking Griffen.

 

I think it's a hype thing as well but understand why it's debated; just something else to talk about until the fights happen:p

 

If I remember correctly, lots of people thought Forrest was gonna win against AS. In the end he didn't even come close. At the time Forrest was one of the top LW, I think Rampage won the CLOSE fight against Forrest. If the guy went to a decision with Rampage and then AS fights him and makes him look like that, enough said. Give AS his props! Dan Henderson is one of the best fighters out there and he didn't make out the second round with AS, what about Nate the great, he didn't make it out the second round if I remember correctly. AS has fought some very good fighters and made them look average. So tell me what division do you think is the strongest? Oh and at least he's willing to move up and fight against bigger fighters unlike some of the other champs.

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If I remember correctly' date=' lots of people thought Forrest was gonna win against AS. In the end he didn't even come close. At the time Forrest was one of the top LW, I think Rampage won the CLOSE fight against Forrest. If the guy went to a decision with Rampage and then AS fights him and makes him look like that, enough said. Give AS his props! Dan Henderson is one of the best fighters out there and he didn't make out the second round with AS, what about Nate the great, he didn't make it out the second round if I remember correctly. AS has fought some very good fighters and made them look average. So tell me what division do you think is the strongest? Oh and at least he's willing to move up and fight against bigger fighters unlike some of the other champs.[/quote']

 

Honestly I thought Forrest had his number as well but this was when I was less aware of Silva's striking ability, his reach, and Forrest's position in the division given his defeat of Rampage and his loss to Evans at a time when I wasn't sure how dominant Evans was. When I saw that fight my first reaction was Forrest threw it as there was no way he went down at the end of the fight with that very light punch thrown by Silva while Silva was moving backwards. When I watched the fight several more times I saw Forrest was simply taken out of the fight mentally nothing more. He was not knocked out in outstanding fashion or anything like that; he was simply out matched at striking which given what I know of Griffen now is not that incredible of an accomplishment.

 

You bring up a valid point about Rampage vs. Griffen but Rampage had a horrible game plan and the leg kicks he had no answer for simple as that. I've said it in other threads if Rampage can take Silva down he can win the fight with him. But that's another thread and i've discussed it in that (the poll with GSP vs. Silva). I also, in that same thread, presented my thoughts on Hendo and how Rampage was able to control Hendo no problem in their fight.

 

I agree nate m. 1 was a good fight for Silva but other then defeating Nate M. and Hendo who else has he defeated in the MW division that was incredible. Irvin and Griffen are not exactly LHW powerhouses either.

 

LHW is the toughest followed by a close tie with WW having the edge between WW and HW in my opinion. I think, once again as stated in the other thread, that it's time for Silva to step up to LHW if he defeats Belfort and Marquardt again. I think stepping down or taking on an opponent stepping up from WW is absolutely the wrong direction for a challenge to Silva.

 

The guy is great i've not said he's not but I would still maintain he recieves too much hype. If he moves up to LHW and murders his TOP 5 opponents then he gets my respect as a p4p guy.

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The only way of telling who is better is by actually making them fight each other and obviously this wount happen so p4p is completly irrelevant in my opinion.

 

It is not irrelevant. No matter what BJ Penn does, no matter how hard he trains, he could never be as tall or as big boned as Brock Lesnar. Weight classes are designed to keep fights competitive as well as full of variety. If we were only concerned with who the best was, and not pound for pound best, then there would be no weight classes and every fight would be huge, slow guys.

Rules make games/sports possible. If there are no rules, then you have no game. If in chess, you could take more than one turn and you could move any piece any which way, it would be nonsense. Having to fight within a weight class is a rule. Working within the rules is the challenge. Imagining the possibilities of overcoming rules (or imagining BJ Penn as physically large as Brock) is fantastic, and fantasy is good.

So don't be such a whiny jerk, okay?

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It is not irrelevant. No matter what BJ Penn does' date=' no matter how hard he trains, he could never be as tall or as big boned as Brock Lesnar. Weight classes are designed to keep fights competitive as well as full of variety. If we were only concerned with who the best was, and not pound for pound best, then there would be no weight classes and every fight would be huge, slow guys.

Rules make games/sports possible. If there are no rules, then you have no game. If in chess, you could take more than one turn and you could move any piece any which way, it would be nonsense. Having to fight within a weight class is a rule. Working within the rules is the challenge. Imagining the possibilities of overcoming rules (or imagining BJ Penn as physically large as Brock) is fantastic, and fantasy is good.

So don't be such a whiny jerk, okay?[/quote']

 

I would agree with this in that particular example. But when you have A. Silva walking around at 220 he can obviously fight at LHW. There's always exceptions to the rule.

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Machida would get hammered if he fought A. Silva. Rua will get him this time. The Machida era is nearing it's end.

 

On a serious note. I think Rua has Machidas number, but Machida is very capable of getting through him if he comes with a better game plan. Pretty evenly matched.

 

I'll stop calling A. Silva the p4p best when he stops making everyone he fights look like n00bs.

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Shogun is a great fighter and he fought his heart out against Machida but to call him the best ever is a stretch of the imagination. Reguardless of how anyone felt the out come of his failed attempt at the title went he didn't walk through Machida and ended up losing in the end.

 

As great as he is saying that he is the best ever is a joke' date=' A. Silva would destroy Shogun at LHW imo. Thats why I'm hoping that he takes the belt in the rematch so Silva can make a run against him and finally put the question of superiority to bed for me.[/quote']

 

I believe Machida won the fight, but seeing how Shogun fought it, he could very well win the rematch in devastating fashion (and vice versa.

 

A.Silva would not destroy him, at all. If anything, I would pick Shogun for the fight. Why? Because they have the same styles, both aggressive, both powerful and incredible Muay Thai.

 

A.Silva hasnt fought someone who fights so much like he does, especially someone with the speed and skill set Shogun has.

 

Where could Silva take this fight? Possibly keep it a kickboxing match and get a decision win. As for knocking him out or submitting him, Silva could not.

 

And for the others, this wasnt a thread asking you for your predictions about the rematch. Im just saying, if your claiming "Machida/Shogun has got this fight, no doubt" then you are a clear idiot.It is a close contest and I dont know who will win, but I hope its Machida.

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If Shogun can decisively beat Machida' date=' it would be clear that the Shogun of Pride is back. If that is the case, and that he is able to keep his form for a while I truly believe that he could be considered the greatest MMA fighter ever. The biggest threat is Machida, undoubtedly. If he manages to take care of him, I dont see anyone else who can even match him, he will be the champion for a while, he will dominate the LHW's, which is arguably, the toughest division in MMA.

 

I am a Shogun fan, but I prefer Machida (and hoping he wins the rematch). But if he does, convincingly, then I am prepared to call him the best, or at least put him up there with BJ and Fedor. Not simply because of his performance against Machida, but the way he fights. It reminds me of a more skilled, and conditioned W.Silva, except he is far younger and has a much longer future.

 

I would fear for the rest of the fighters of the division if Shogun was to take the belt.[/quote']

The Spider would hand Shogun his a s s on a silver platter eight days a week.

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The Spider would hand Shogun his a s s on a silver platter eight days a week.

 

Disagree. I would put my money on Shogun, as he was beating Anderson when they train together why couldnt he do it one more time in the octagon. Silva has never faced someone like Shogun and Vitor isnt even close to Shogun.

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It is not irrelevant. No matter what BJ Penn does' date=' no matter how hard he trains, he could never be as tall or as big boned as Brock Lesnar. Weight classes are designed to keep fights competitive as well as full of variety. If we were only concerned with who the best was, and not pound for pound best, then there would be no weight classes and every fight would be huge, slow guys.

Rules make games/sports possible. If there are no rules, then you have no game. If in chess, you could take more than one turn and you could move any piece any which way, it would be nonsense. Having to fight within a weight class is a rule. Working within the rules is the challenge. Imagining the possibilities of overcoming rules (or imagining BJ Penn as physically large as Brock) is fantastic, and fantasy is good.

So don't be such a whiny jerk, okay?[/quote']

 

Pound for pound term is a joke made up by Dana White so that fans have the idea that Anderson is more than a champion. p4p is nothing more than a hype. It came from boxing to mma but please can someone really tell me what does this term really mean? How do you become the best p4p?

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Disagree. I would put my money on Shogun' date=' as he was beating Anderson when they train together why couldnt he do it one more time in the octagon. Silva has never faced someone like Shogun and Vitor isnt even close to Shogun.[/quote']

 

lol @ this

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you mean by walking away without a belt like he did last time? lol

 

what does Shogun have that's any threat to Silva?

 

I dont know. Knockout power, speed, ground game, leg kicks, explosivnes, very good clinch. Basiclly everything. I know Silva would be a favourite and rigthtfully so but you got to be mad to think that Shogun doesnt have any chance. Funny like he didnt have any chance against Lyoto...

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Nahh' date=' by picking up the UD.

 

Hands, Feet, BJJ Black Belt, & Muay Thai[/quote']

 

hey if Shogun wins I won't be mad. Best of luck to him. Win or lose I don't see the next fight going to a decision.

 

Silva has all that too. Except he's better at it.

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hey if Shogun wins I won't be mad. Best of luck to him. Win or lose I don't see the next fight going to a decision.

 

Silva has all that too. Except he's better at it.

 

I dont know. Shogun never lost the standup and he has never been KOed and he fought tougher opposition than Anderson. I know Silva is great but to think he cant be beaten is redicioulus.

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I dont know. Shogun never lost the standup and he has never been KOed and he fought tougher opposition than Anderson. I know Silva is great but to think he cant be beaten is redicioulus.

 

I don't think he can't be beaten. Anyone can be beaten. They're human.

I just don't see Shogun possessing what it would take to stop Silva. Silva would just pick him apart like he did with Forrest. And no I'm not comparing Forrest to Shogun.

 

EDIT: And I'm not being biased cause I'm a Machida fan. I was a Shogun fan before him, I just like Machida's style better.

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I know:) I find it silly when people dont back up anything they say. They just laugh at you.

 

LOL that happens alot here.

 

hey if Shogun wins I won't be mad. Best of luck to him. Win or lose I don't see the next fight going to a decision.

 

Silva has all that too. Except he's better at it.

 

Yes you will. Dont try to lie to us :rolleyes:

 

So you say, Just wait till they fight :)

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LOL that happens alot here.

 

 

 

Yes you will. Dont try to lie to us :rolleyes:

 

So you say' date=' Just wait till they fight :)[/quote']

 

haha You can't be mad at someone for winning. If they win they win.

 

So I say? So a lot of people say. Ask around. Start a thread. Make Poll. See how many think Shogun would beat A. Silva.

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I don't think he can't be beaten. Anyone can be beaten. They're human.

I just don't see Shogun possessing what it would take to stop Silva. Silva would just pick him apart like he did with Forrest. And no I'm not comparing Forrest to Shogun.

 

EDIT: And I'm not being biased cause I'm a Machida fan. I was a Shogun fan before him' date=' I just like Machida's style better.[/quote']

 

Fair enough. But I actually think that Forrest had a horrible gameplan hence he looked so bad. I dont think Shogun would made the same mistake. I bealive that Shogun would force the ground game on Silva and unlike Lutter would capitalize on it. And I actually bealive that Silva and Shogun are equal in the standup.

I think that Silva is an amazing fighter and he would be the dog rightfully but I cant get rid of the feeling that he is fighting guys who are perfect for his style. Nate, Hendo, Forrest and Rich are his best wins. I dont think Anderson would look so good if he would fought guys like Shogun, Rampage, Lil Nog or some other upper guys in the LHW. I also dont think Vitor will challenge him.

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haha You can't be mad at someone for winning. If they win they win.

 

So I say? So a lot of people say. Ask around. Start a thread. Make Poll. See how many think Shogun would beat A. Silva.

 

Sure you can. It'll be stupid but you can.

 

IDC what people think. Opinions mean nothing to me. I need FACT! :)

 

in case you dont know by now, I was just messing around.

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Fair enough. But I actually think that Forrest had a horrible gameplan hence he looked so bad. I dont think Shogun would made the same mistake. I bealive that Shogun would force the ground game on Silva and unlike Lutter would capitalize on it. And I actually bealive that Silva and Shogun are equal in the standup.

I think that Silva is an amazing fighter and he would be the dog rightfully but I cant get rid of the feeling that he is fighting guys who are perfect for his style. Nate' date=' Hendo, Forrest and Rich are his best wins. I dont think Anderson would look so good if he would fought guys like Shogun, Rampage, Lil Nog or some other upper guys in the LHW. I also dont think Vitor will challenge him.[/quote']

Forrest may not have had the best gameplan, but he got the win. So you can't hate too much. Silva does have a ground game. People tend to forget that. He doesn't have much of a defense but he trains with the Nog brothers. And that enough said right there lol.

As far as stand up, Silva has the most accurate hands in the business. Very clean, and very precise. And when he fights Vitor he's going to remind people that. No one has hands like Silva. I would say only BJ comes next. I agree he does need to fight more top guys, and I think he will over time. Wins over Hendo, Nate, and Forrest are great wins. But I think he can hang with the best in LHW. He certainly has the skills to

Sure you can. It'll be stupid but you can.

 

IDC what people think. Opinions mean nothing to me. I need FACT! :)

 

in case you dont know by now' date=' I was just messing around.[/quote']

 

But opinions are all that matters on here. you should know that lol

i know you're messing. So am I :eek:

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