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A way to look at the UFC's HW division


Mirko4life

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With all the HW discussions going on lately, I thought it would be interesting to point out something I have noticed in the HW division.

 

Now I would like to say that this isn't hard facts, but just a way you can interpret what fights have shown us in the HW division.

 

So most people right now are saying that the UFC's HW division is stacked with talent right now. That they hold most of the talent in that division. But the truth is, these fighters might look good just because they are fighting other fighters who aren't so good.

 

Let's take a look at the top 5 in no particular order.

 

Shane Carwin

Carwin is a very strong(physically) fighter, no one can deny this. But let's take a look at his wins. He beat Gonzaga. Ending the fight with 1 punch in just over 1 minute might seem impressive, but the truth is he was getting dominated for the whole fight before that. Other than his one win over Gonzaga, he has no meaningful wins.

 

Junior Dos Santos

JDS is(IMO) the most impressive of the bunch. He has a stoppage of Werdum in just over a minute. He also beat Gonzaga fairly fast, and unlike Carwin wasn't in any trouble at all. He also beat Mirko, granted it is not the same Mirko that we saw in Pride but that is still a great accomplishment. There is no denying that JDS has a good striking game, but we have never seen his ground game against a skill fighter. I know people will say he trains with Big Nog so he must have a good ground game, but when you think about it, that makes no sense. Marquart also trains with GSP, and he couldn't stop 1 single takedown from Sonnen. So really his ground game is unknown so far. His only loss is also by submission, so this doesn't help his case.

 

Cain Velasquez

Cain has 1 impressive stoppage over Big Nog. Now for the people who have been watching the sport for a long time, we could all see that Big Nog was way slower than he used to be. His legendary chin wasn't there also. Now there may be 2 explanations to the chin. First, Cain hits like a truck. Second, Nog's repeated blows to the head finally caught up to him. But as I saw that Nog was also very slow, it leads me to believe it's the second explanation. Other then Nog, Cain beat a bunch of cans.

 

Frank Mir

Mir is really one of the hardest fighter to analyze out of the 5. Basically, he made a career out of ups and downs. He won the HW belt by submitting Sylvia. As we all know(or should know at least), Sylvia doesn't have a great ground game. It is still a very good win. He was also the first man to stop Big Nog. But Big Nog really doesn't look like he did a couple of years ago. He looks very slow compared to the Nog that was the #2 HW in the world for quite a while. He was also the only man to beat Brock Lesnar. Looking at that fight, we can see he was overwhelmed on. He caught a break when the ref stood the fight up(some may say that this was a bad call, since he didn't issue any warning) then submitted Lesnar. Lesnar was also on his second MMA fight, so he was very green. This might sound look like a stellar fighter, but we are also talking about the man who lost to Freeman, Cruz, Vera and got beat by Lesnar in the rematch. Now some might say that Freeman was early in his career, and that is completely right. But still, Freeman is not an elite fighter. Cruz and Vera fought him right after his accident, so some might say this was the reason for his shortcoming, we will never know 100% if that was the reason.

 

Brock Lesnar

To some, Lesnar might seem like this incredible fighter that managed to get the belt after only 4 fights. But let's look at his short career. He won over Mon-Soo Kim, not even worth mentioning but what the hell. Then he lost in his UFC debut against Mir, first fight against a fighter that isn't bad. He then beat Heath Herring. Herring was never an elite fighter to begin with, and when Brock fought him he was worst than he used to be.Then he beat the champion. At that time, the champion was a 44 year old man that is more suited to the LHW division. He then beat Mir in the rematch with an impressive performance.

 

So let's see what makes the division so great. Carwin is great because he beat a bunch of no-names(No offense here, I have respect for all fighters but I am talking about the "elite" here) and Gonzaga(who was never really a consistent fighter). JDS looked great standing against some good fighters, but he has never really faced a top 5 fighter or had his ground game tested. Velasquez beat a former legend but never really beat any current top fighters. Mir beat a man with no ground game, the same former legend that Velasquez beat and a guy who was on his second MMA fight. Lesnar lost to the man who lost to Freeman a Cruz(No-names) and Vera(LHW), he then beat a man who was never great and a 44 year old LHW. Then he got revenge for his first lost against the same man.

 

Now while some people might see the UFC, and believe all the hype that they build around their fighters(Nothing wrong with that, I would do the same if I had the business), some might look at it in another way. Some might think, well the division is really not that great. It's ruled by new-comers who never proved themselves, a guy who had a career of up and downs and a man who is only on his fifth pro fight.

 

Now of course, this HW division is the best it's ever been, but was never even decent so it's not hard to beat. The UFC is trying to label the division as stacked. IMO, it has a whole lot of fighter who are hyped like there is no tomorrow. If these fighters had exactly the same skills but were built like a LHW(one of the really stacked division), they would be lucky to be in the top 10 IMO.

 

So here you have it people, while the HW division is stacked compared to what it once was, it is not really full of talent. The fighters that compete are very green(Shane, Cain, JDS, Brock) or made a career while the division was at it's lowest and still managed to lose to a couple of mediocre fighters(Mir).

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Hmmmm yeah. But if thier opponents are not as good then that still makes them the best in the division doesnt it? The best of a bad bunch maybe' date=' but best none the less. And no doubt most of them could wreck any fighter in the lower divisions too.[/quote']

 

Yea I wanted to compare them to HW outside of the UFC, but I was getting sleepy lol. I'll do a really quick one right now, just stating the notable wins and losses some fighters without a lot of commentating. So let's start with the obvious.

 

Fedor Emelianenko.

34 total fights. Only 1 loss(controversial loss due to a cut that should have been a NC), other than that no real losses.

Beat Big Nog, Mirko, Coleman, Sylvia, Arlovski, Arona, Randleman, Sobral, Herring, Schilt, Lindland and I am skipping a bunch. Been tested on the ground and standing.

 

Wedum

Beat Gonzaga, Overeem, Vera and A. Emelianenko. Losses to JDS, Kharitonov and Big Nog and Arlovski. He has been tested standing and on the ground and all of his losses came from proven top fighters.

 

Rogers

Beat Arlovski. Only loss to Fedor. At least equal to Carwin(superior IMO since Arlovski is better than Gonzaga).

 

Barnett

Beat Severn, Schilt, Couture, A. Emelianenko, Hunt, Big Nog. Lost to Big Nog and Mirko(both while in their prime). Only reason people sometimes forget him is because of his problem with banned substances.

 

Overeem

Harder talk about since he used to fight LHW and is now a completely different monster. I am really to lazy to go through his LHW fights so I'll just say that he has been tested on the ground and standing. His stand up is one of the best(semi-finalist in the K-1 Grand Prix). He has never lost since he moved to HW full time.

 

I'll do it better like I did with the UFC fighters tomorrow but I am getting really sleepy right now. For now this is it.

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Impressive

 

I only have one suggestion. If you took the time to make this thread an entertaining read adding humor and so forth' date=' it would have received 5 stars from me.[/quote']

 

Point wasn't to be funny, just to give people a new perceptive to view things from. Not really sure if you were sarcastic or not in your post lol. Anyway, this is really it for me like I said in the last post. I am super seriux this time(+1 if you get the reference).

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Wedum

Beat Gonzaga, Overeem, Vera and A. Emelianenko. Losses to JDS, Kharitonov and Big Nog and Arlovski. He has been tested standing and on the ground and all of his losses came from proven top fighters.

 

Rogers

Beat Arlovski. Only loss to Fedor. At least equal to Carwin(superior IMO since Arlovski is better than Gonzaga).

 

Wow, fantastic job done this entire thread. Your thoughts on the UFC HWs are very very persuasive, well thought out and will definitely have me thinking differently whenever DW harps on the best heavyweight division seen so far, which he's been doing plenty of lately. I can find humor in other places, 5 stars on your first post...

 

But, I have a couple of disagreements with you on these two posts within your analysis of other MMA HWs. Fabricio Werdum has a loss against JDS. Was JDS a 'proven top fighter' as you said all his losses came against. You just got done convincing me JDS isnt too elite of a fighter now and he wrecked a ****y Werdum in his UFC debut! Could say more on Werdum, but obvious I'm not too high on him

 

Brett Rogers: at least as good as Carwin? Hmm Arlovski seems to be the only respectful win for him in my opinion and that was, of course, made possible by Arlovski ever weakening chin. My problem with your point that Brett Rogers is equal to an undefeated Carwin is that Gonzaga IS a better, tougher fighter than Arlovski with a better chin. I make take heat for this after Gonzaga's last fight but still plenty better than Arlovski at this point in time.

 

That's it tho, u really made me think and that's really where my objections are from. Bravo Mirko4life

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ok wait wait wait..

 

let's go over what you said.

 

You put JDS in with the "not that good UFC fighter group" because we've never seen his ground game.

 

Yet, you then say Werdum is good and has only lost to proven top fighters (which happen to include JDS) lol.So is JDS a proven top fighter? or is he not that great because we haven't seen his ground game. Or apparently according to you he is both proven good and not proven good. wtf?

 

You Call Rogers good (and Carwin bad) even though we have never seen Rogers ground game (much like JDS) and even though he is pretty much just a big heavy handed brawler like Carwin.

 

You write off Mir and Cains wins over Big Nog because you say big nog is over the hill and isn't the fighter he was.... Yet Fedor is still great even though he hasn't fought anyone good in ages either.

 

Your list of Fedors notable wins include Sylvia.. yet with Mir you say his win over Sylvia isn't meaningful because Sylvia sucks on the ground.

 

You say Cain only has one notable win so he isn't that great. Yet you say Rogers is great for beating Arlovski (which is one notable win)

 

Your entire analysis is so biased it is laughable.

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Wedum

Beat Gonzaga' date=' Overeem, Vera and A. Emelianenko. Losses to JDS, Kharitonov and Big Nog and Arlovski. He has been tested standing and on the ground and all of his losses came from proven top fighters.

 

Rogers

Beat Arlovski. Only loss to Fedor. At least equal to Carwin(superior IMO since Arlovski is better than Gonzaga).

 

Wow, fantastic job done this entire thread. Your thoughts on the UFC HWs are very very persuasive, well thought out and will definitely have me thinking differently whenever DW harps on the best heavyweight division seen so far, which he's been doing plenty of lately. I can find humor in other places, 5 stars on your first post...

 

But, I have a couple of disagreements with you on these two posts within your analysis of other MMA HWs. Fabricio Werdum has a loss against JDS. Was JDS a 'proven top fighter' as you said all his losses came against. You just got done convincing me JDS isnt too elite of a fighter [u']now[/u] and he wrecked a ****y Werdum in his UFC debut! Could say more on Werdum, but obvious I'm not too high on him

 

Brett Rogers: at least as good as Carwin? Hmm Arlovski seems to be the only respectful win for him in my opinion and that was, of course, made possible by Arlovski ever weakening chin. My problem with your point that Brett Rogers is equal to an undefeated Carwin is that Gonzaga IS a better, tougher fighter than Arlovski with a better chin. I make take heat for this after Gonzaga's last fight but still plenty better than Arlovski at this point in time.

 

That's it tho, u really made me think and that's really where my objections are from. Bravo Mirko4life

 

For the Carwin/Rogers/Gonzaga/Arlovski thing.

 

First of all, Gonzaga is nowhere near as good as Arlovski. Sure, Arlovski has hit a rough patch in his career. Most fighters do. But he is amazingly talented, well rounded and a phenomenal athlete. I'd bet the house on Arlovski Vs Gonzaga for a vicious KO by the Pitbull. Gonzaga got KO'd twice by Werdum at a time when Werdum was nowhere near as good of a striker as he is now.

 

Like Brett Rogers, Shane Carwin has fought all cans other than Napao. And Napao is not a top HW. Arlovski was still ranked top 5 with his only loss being to the best in the world.

 

So I gotta say, unless Carwin beats mir, Rogers is superior to him.

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Good analysis. You make good points about most of the UFCs top ranked heavy weights being green. They are stud fighters IMO though. However, I do believe that if the other fighters you meantioned (Fedor, Barnett, Overeem, Rogers, Alovski, and Werdum) were in the UFC, the HW UFC rankings would look a lot different. (I know that there is no formal UFC ranking system, but everyone still has a good idea who the top fighters are).

I do find it somewhat of a shame that the only good vet. HW that we have is Mir(IMO Mir is definitely a top-tier HW).

Id be really interested to see what kind of noise guys like Fedor, Barnett, and Overeem(Not sure if Overeem would be any good at HW without the roids) would make in the UFC HW division.

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ok wait wait wait..

 

let's go over what you said.

 

You put JDS in with the "not that good UFC fighter group" because we've never seen his ground game.

 

 

#1 > never seen his ground game

#2 > tapped early in his 6th match

#3 > couldn't land the big punch vs crocop

#4 > very shallow record

#5 > would flat-out refuse to fight rodrigo

#6 > caught werdum early w/ a freaky uppercut' date=' the follow up left was behind the head

#7 > werdum tko'd gonzaga twice

 

[img']http://i38.tinypic.com/246jdoj.jpg[/img]

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With all the HW discussions going on lately' date=' I thought it would be interesting to point out something I have noticed in the HW division.

 

Now I would like to say that this isn't hard facts, but just a way you can interpret what fights have shown us in the HW division.

 

So most people right now are saying that the UFC's HW division is stacked with talent right now. That they hold most of the talent in that division. But the truth is, these fighters might look good just because they are fighting other fighters who aren't so good.

 

Let's take a look at the top 5 in no particular order.

 

Shane Carwin

Carwin is a very strong(physically) fighter, no one can deny this. But let's take a look at his wins. He beat Gonzaga. Ending the fight with 1 punch in just over 1 minute might seem impressive, but the truth is he was getting dominated for the whole fight before that. Other than his one win over Gonzaga, he has no meaningful wins.

 

Junior Dos Santos

JDS is(IMO) the most impressive of the bunch. He has a stoppage of Werdum in just over a minute. He also beat Gonzaga fairly fast, and unlike Carwin wasn't in any trouble at all. He also beat Mirko, granted it is not the same Mirko that we saw in Pride but that is still a great accomplishment. There is no denying that JDS has a good striking game, but we have never seen his ground game against a skill fighter. I know people will say he trains with Big Nog so he must have a good ground game, but when you think about it, that makes no sense. Marquart also trains with GSP, and he couldn't stop 1 single takedown from Sonnen. So really his ground game is unknown so far. His only loss is also by submission, so this doesn't help his case.

 

Cain Velasquez

Cain has 1 impressive stoppage over Big Nog. Now for the people who have been watching the sport for a long time, we could all see that Big Nog was way slower than he used to be. His legendary chin wasn't there also. Now there may be 2 explanations to the chin. First, Cain hits like a truck. Second, Nog's repeated blows to the head finally caught up to him. But as I saw that Nog was also very slow, it leads me to believe it's the second explanation. Other then Nog, Cain beat a bunch of cans.

 

Frank Mir

Mir is really one of the hardest fighter to analyze out of the 5. Basically, he made a career out of ups and downs. He won the HW belt by submitting Sylvia. As we all know(or should know at least), Sylvia doesn't have a great ground game. It is still a very good win. He was also the first man to stop Big Nog. But Big Nog really doesn't look like he did a couple of years ago. He looks very slow compared to the Nog that was the #2 HW in the world for quite a while. He was also the only man to beat Brock Lesnar. Looking at that fight, we can see he was overwhelmed on. He caught a break when the ref stood the fight up(some may say that this was a bad call, since he didn't issue any warning) then submitted Lesnar. Lesnar was also on his second MMA fight, so he was very green. This might sound look like a stellar fighter, but we are also talking about the man who lost to Freeman, Cruz, Vera and got beat by Lesnar in the rematch. Now some might say that Freeman was early in his career, and that is completely right. But still, Freeman is not an elite fighter. Cruz and Vera fought him right after his accident, so some might say this was the reason for his shortcoming, we will never know 100% if that was the reason.

 

Brock Lesnar

To some, Lesnar might seem like this incredible fighter that managed to get the belt after only 4 fights. But let's look at his short career. He won over Mon-Soo Kim, not even worth mentioning but what the hell. Then he lost in his UFC debut against Mir, first fight against a fighter that isn't bad. He then beat Heath Herring. Herring was never an elite fighter to begin with, and when Brock fought him he was worst than he used to be.Then he beat the champion. At that time, the champion was a 44 year old man that is more suited to the LHW division. He then beat Mir in the rematch with an impressive performance.

 

So let's see what makes the division so great. Carwin is great because he beat a bunch of no-names(No offense here, I have respect for all fighters but I am talking about the "elite" here) and Gonzaga(who was never really a consistent fighter). JDS looked great standing against some good fighters, but he has never really faced a top 5 fighter or had his ground game tested. Velasquez beat a former legend but never really beat any current top fighters. Mir beat a man with no ground game, the same former legend that Velasquez beat and a guy who was on his second MMA fight. Lesnar lost to the man who lost to Freeman a Cruz(No-names) and Vera(LHW), he then beat a man who was never great and a 44 year old LHW. Then he got revenge for his first lost against the same man.

 

Now while some people might see the UFC, and believe all the hype that they build around their fighters(Nothing wrong with that, I would do the same if I had the business), some might look at it in another way. Some might think, well the division is really not that great. It's ruled by new-comers who never proved themselves, a guy who had a career of up and downs and a man who is only on his fifth pro fight.

 

Now of course, this HW division is the best it's ever been, but was never even decent so it's not hard to beat. The UFC is trying to label the division as stacked. IMO, it has a whole lot of fighter who are hyped like there is no tomorrow. If these fighters had exactly the same skills but were built like a LHW(one of the really stacked division), they would be lucky to be in the top 10 IMO.

 

So here you have it people, while the HW division is stacked compared to what it once was, it is not really full of talent. The fighters that compete are very green(Shane, Cain, JDS, Brock) or made a career while the division was at it's lowest and still managed to lose to a couple of mediocre fighters(Mir).[/quote']

 

 

You have to live in present day...MIr isnt the same fighter as in the past.....bigger, stronger more focused and dedicated....and hes hungrier then he has ever been or then anyone else in the division.

 

Carwin will fall on March 27, 2010

Brock will possibly get his career ended by Mir this summer and lose his next fight also

JDS and Cain will be great matches for MIR.......i will still pick mir winning both of those fights.

 

Nogueria is out of the picture.

Todd Duffey is a possibility

 

Mir will regain the championship making him 2 time Heavweight champion and 2 time interm champion ....and hold it for a long while.

 

Brock will retire after being beat 2 times in a row and having his arm broke by MIR

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wow, an intelligent analysis of the HW division and on a UFC forum too. I agree with almost all the observations you made but I would temper it by saying that despite fair criticism all the fighters you discussed are still great HW fighters - why? because this is MMA where a record of 8-1 etc. does pick you out as a top tier fighter and wins against "unknown" fighters do count because all the fights are volatile.

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With all the HW discussions going on lately' date=' I thought it would be interesting to point out something I have noticed in the HW division.

 

Now I would like to say that this isn't hard facts, but just a way you can interpret what fights have shown us in the HW division.

 

So most people right now are saying that the UFC's HW division is stacked with talent right now. That they hold most of the talent in that division. But the truth is, these fighters might look good just because they are fighting other fighters who aren't so good.

 

Let's take a look at the top 5 in no particular order.

 

Shane Carwin

Carwin is a very strong(physically) fighter, no one can deny this. But let's take a look at his wins. He beat Gonzaga. Ending the fight with 1 punch in just over 1 minute might seem impressive, but the truth is he was getting dominated for the whole fight before that. Other than his one win over Gonzaga, he has no meaningful wins.

 

Junior Dos Santos

JDS is(IMO) the most impressive of the bunch. He has a stoppage of Werdum in just over a minute. He also beat Gonzaga fairly fast, and unlike Carwin wasn't in any trouble at all. He also beat Mirko, granted it is not the same Mirko that we saw in Pride but that is still a great accomplishment. There is no denying that JDS has a good striking game, but we have never seen his ground game against a skill fighter. I know people will say he trains with Big Nog so he must have a good ground game, but when you think about it, that makes no sense. Marquart also trains with GSP, and he couldn't stop 1 single takedown from Sonnen. So really his ground game is unknown so far. His only loss is also by submission, so this doesn't help his case.

 

Cain Velasquez

Cain has 1 impressive stoppage over Big Nog. Now for the people who have been watching the sport for a long time, we could all see that Big Nog was way slower than he used to be. His legendary chin wasn't there also. Now there may be 2 explanations to the chin. First, Cain hits like a truck. Second, Nog's repeated blows to the head finally caught up to him. But as I saw that Nog was also very slow, it leads me to believe it's the second explanation. Other then Nog, Cain beat a bunch of cans.

 

Frank Mir

Mir is really one of the hardest fighter to analyze out of the 5. Basically, he made a career out of ups and downs. He won the HW belt by submitting Sylvia. As we all know(or should know at least), Sylvia doesn't have a great ground game. It is still a very good win. He was also the first man to stop Big Nog. But Big Nog really doesn't look like he did a couple of years ago. He looks very slow compared to the Nog that was the #2 HW in the world for quite a while. He was also the only man to beat Brock Lesnar. Looking at that fight, we can see he was overwhelmed on. He caught a break when the ref stood the fight up(some may say that this was a bad call, since he didn't issue any warning) then submitted Lesnar. Lesnar was also on his second MMA fight, so he was very green. This might sound look like a stellar fighter, but we are also talking about the man who lost to Freeman, Cruz, Vera and got beat by Lesnar in the rematch. Now some might say that Freeman was early in his career, and that is completely right. But still, Freeman is not an elite fighter. Cruz and Vera fought him right after his accident, so some might say this was the reason for his shortcoming, we will never know 100% if that was the reason.

 

Brock Lesnar

To some, Lesnar might seem like this incredible fighter that managed to get the belt after only 4 fights. But let's look at his short career. He won over Mon-Soo Kim, not even worth mentioning but what the hell. Then he lost in his UFC debut against Mir, first fight against a fighter that isn't bad. He then beat Heath Herring. Herring was never an elite fighter to begin with, and when Brock fought him he was worst than he used to be.Then he beat the champion. At that time, the champion was a 44 year old man that is more suited to the LHW division. He then beat Mir in the rematch with an impressive performance.

 

So let's see what makes the division so great. Carwin is great because he beat a bunch of no-names(No offense here, I have respect for all fighters but I am talking about the "elite" here) and Gonzaga(who was never really a consistent fighter). JDS looked great standing against some good fighters, but he has never really faced a top 5 fighter or had his ground game tested. Velasquez beat a former legend but never really beat any current top fighters. Mir beat a man with no ground game, the same former legend that Velasquez beat and a guy who was on his second MMA fight. Lesnar lost to the man who lost to Freeman a Cruz(No-names) and Vera(LHW), he then beat a man who was never great and a 44 year old LHW. Then he got revenge for his first lost against the same man.

 

Now while some people might see the UFC, and believe all the hype that they build around their fighters(Nothing wrong with that, I would do the same if I had the business), some might look at it in another way. Some might think, well the division is really not that great. It's ruled by new-comers who never proved themselves, a guy who had a career of up and downs and a man who is only on his fifth pro fight.

 

Now of course, this HW division is the best it's ever been, but was never even decent so it's not hard to beat. The UFC is trying to label the division as stacked. IMO, it has a whole lot of fighter who are hyped like there is no tomorrow. If these fighters had exactly the same skills but were built like a LHW(one of the really stacked division), they would be lucky to be in the top 10 IMO.

 

So here you have it people, while the HW division is stacked compared to what it once was, it is not really full of talent. The fighters that compete are very green(Shane, Cain, JDS, Brock) or made a career while the division was at it's lowest and still managed to lose to a couple of mediocre fighters(Mir).[/quote']

 

MIR never submitted Tim Sylvia. The ref stopped the fight after seeing Tin's forearm break. Sylvia still wanted to continue the fight.

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#1 > never seen his ground game

#2 > tapped early in his 6th match

#3 > couldn't land the big punch vs crocop<<<<<<<<<<<< dominated crocop and ended it with a punch to the eye' date=' it all counts the same.

#4 > very shallow record

#5 > would flat-out refuse to fight rodrigo<<<<<<<<<<<< its bad to have respect now?

#6 > caught werdum early w/ a freaky uppercut, the follow up left was behind the head <<<<<<<<<<<< that uppercut still sent him to the mat and the fight wouldve ended the same way.

#7 > werdum tko'd gonzaga twice <<<<<<<<<<<< what does this have to do with JDS?

 

[img']http://i38.tinypic.com/246jdoj.jpg[/img]

 

#1 & #2 are your only credible points. I guess #4 too. :rolleyes: Just because im too lazy to comment on that.

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point wasn't to be funny' date=' just to give people a new perceptive to view things from. Not really sure if you were sarcastic or not in your post lol. Anyway, this is really it for me like i said in the last post. I am super seriux this time(+1 if you get the reference).[/quote']

 

south park!

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Nice post but I do have a couple issues I want to toss on the table.

 

Rogers and Carwin. You say Rogers is superior but I would like to know why? I think you have to look at the fighter just as much as who they have fought. Rogers is a brawler plain and simple. It's his entire game. Carwin also has 1 punch KO power, but brings a top level wrestling pedegree as well as a BJJ brown belt. He has KO wins, GnP wins and Submission wins. Given how close their records are to each other and the competition they have fought I give the nod to Carwin based on a more complete game then Rogers.

 

Overeem right now IMO can't even be part of the SF equation. Despite holding the belt, the guy has only fought cans in Japan for 3 years now. He may prove to be a dominant HW but right now of the entire list he is the most UNPROVEN at that weight.

 

I'm afraid your bias came out in the JDS and Werdum section. You can't make a case for Werdum's only loses being to top notch guys and including JDS in that, then at the same time say JDS is not a top tier fighter because we haven't really seen his ground game. Its one or the other. JDS has faced 2 BBJ Black Belts and his answer to their ground game was to KO them,

 

Fedor's win over Sylvia by submission good. Mir's win over Sylvia bad cause Tim has no ground game. Which is is it? Does submitting Sylvia only count if you are Russian?

 

Wedrum's loss to Big Nog is a loss to a top guy. Cain's win over Big Nog doesn't count. Werdum's loss was less than 4 years ago. Big Nog is only 33. Its not like Cain beat a 45 year old guy.

 

Reading it again for the young UFC HW you really made an effort to discredit their accomplishments while at the same time you went out of the way to down play the losses of the SF HW fighters to put them in a better light.

 

Both SF and UFC have good HW divisions right now. I give the experience nod to SF, but I give the UFC the nod in the fact their fights tend to have a more complete MMA game.

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Okay I'll now clarify some things about my post. Xhojin and uaqin both made very good comments on what I said.

 

First off, the first post about the UFC's HW was not made to try to discredit them. They are all top fighters IMO. It's just to make some people realize that they aren't the almighty fighters that would crush anyone outside of the UFC. And this isn't "UFC fighters are bad and the ones outside are better". This is just "UFC fighters aren't as good as the UFC says and the ones outside are better than most give them credit for".

 

Also , the "outside of UFC HW" part was made in about 2 minutes. I did it really fast so now I'll clarify some things.

 

Now the Werdum thing was just a mistake on my part, he was beaten by proven fighters and one who wasn't proven(JDS).JDS stand-up is proven right now. Can't say anything bad about it. He KO'ed Werdum fairly fast, but Werdum was never(he improved now but still it's not top level) a striker. From what I have seen of JDS after that fight, he pretty much has the best striking in the UFC's HW division right now. No shame in losing to him.

 

For the Carwin vs Rogers thing, Alpha pretty much explained it. The way I see it, Arlovski is better then Gonzaga. Both Rogers and Carwin have 1 notable win, so I give the nod to Rogers because his win is against a better fighter. That being said, this might change after tonight if Carwin wins. But right now, Rogers is ahead by not much. Really, if someone said they are about equal I would have no problem with that. Also, some have pointed out that we haven't seen Rogers ground game. Well we have in his fight with Fedor. It wasn't very long, but he escaped a Kimura, reversed Fedor, did some pretty good GnP(which IMO would have KO'ed a lot of people) and escaped an armbar. He did this against a man who(IMO) has the second best ground game of any HW. And really, everyone should have Fedor in the top 3 HW ground game. Uaqin said he would give the nod to Carwin because Carwin has shown a much more complete game. I am fine with this. But really, you can put any of the 2 ahead of the other but they remain almost the same. Whichever is better for you, you have to admit he isn't better by much.(Unless you're a fanboy :P)

 

Xhojing said Fedor hasn't fought anyone good in ages. He is the only HW that has fought 3 top 10 ranked fighters and won recently. So really, that point isn't any good.

 

As far as Mir beating Sylvia not being as good as Fedor being Sylvia, there is a very good explanation for this. Mir beat Sylvia only on the ground. Fedor on the other hand, knocked down Sylvia and choked him out after. He did this faster than Mir too. Now some might say, well Fedor still won on the ground, but he could have just finished Sylvia with GnP at that point. Point is, Fedor outclassed Sylvia standing and on the ground. Mir did it only on the ground. Sylvia was always a striker so Fedor's win(IMO) is more impressive.

 

Also, the Cain vs Rogers point. Cain's 1 win isn't that great because Big Nog hasn't looked good for some time. The only fight he looked good was against Randy, but Randy is really showing signs of his age. Rogers' win against Arlovski looks way better IMO. Arlovski was on a 5 win streak, then lost to the best(rankings, not your opinion) HW in the world. He also looked good in all those fights, as opposed to Nog who looked pretty bad even when he won(although that isn't unheard of for Big Nog).

 

For Overeem, like I said it's hard to rank him. But we have seen he has crazy striking at HW(K-1 grand prix semi-finalist. We have also seen that he has a solid ground game(not elite) when he was a LHW. Skill doesn't just disappear so it's safe to say he's still solid.

 

uaqin also mentioned that Cain beating Big Nog is not impressive(It's impressive, but not as much as people make it to be. It was unexpected from a man that was nicknamed pillowfists tho :P) but Werdum losing to him is ok. Look at when the fights took place. When Werdum lost, Big Nog was the second best HW in the world and submit pretty much anyone(except Fedor). When Cain beat Big Nog, Big Nog had already been stopped by Mir. He had looked slow and old for 4 fights already.

 

So here is my answer to all these points. But like I said, I am not saying that the UFC is bad. They are great fighters. I am just saying that if they were all fighting in the same league, each and every fighter would put up a good fight against the rest. I can easily point out arguments that show that the UFC fighters are great, and the ones outside aren't(except for Fedor. Sorry but I just can't do it for him). I won't do this however because this is pretty much all that is done these days when we discuss the HW division.

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#1 > never seen his ground game

#2 > tapped early in his 6th match

#3 > couldn't land the big punch vs crocop

#4 > very shallow record

#5 > would flat-out refuse to fight rodrigo

#6 > caught werdum early w/ a freaky uppercut' date=' the follow up left was behind the head

#7 > werdum tko'd gonzaga twice

 

[img']http://i38.tinypic.com/246jdoj.jpg[/img]

 

 

nice quoting out of context.

 

You left out the rest of it where I pointed out how in the paragraph about Werdum the OP said werdum has only lost to top level fighters. But Werdum lost to JDS. So according to the OP DJS is not elite because we haven't seen his ground game AND he is elite because he beat Werdum.

 

I was not saying anything about JDS and his level of skill. I was saying that the OP has faulty contradictory logic.

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Nice post but I do have a couple issues I want to toss on the table.

 

Rogers and Carwin. You say Rogers is superior but I would like to know why? I think you have to look at the fighter just as much as who they have fought. Rogers is a brawler plain and simple. It's his entire game. Carwin also has 1 punch KO power' date=' but brings a top level wrestling pedegree as well as a BJJ brown belt. He has KO wins, GnP wins and Submission wins. Given how close their records are to each other and the competition they have fought I give the nod to Carwin based on a more complete game then Rogers.

 

Overeem right now IMO can't even be part of the SF equation. Despite holding the belt, the guy has only fought cans in Japan for 3 years now. He may prove to be a dominant HW but right now of the entire list he is the most UNPROVEN at that weight.

 

I'm afraid your bias came out in the JDS and Werdum section. You can't make a case for Werdum's only loses being to top notch guys and including JDS in that, then at the same time say JDS is not a top tier fighter because we haven't really seen his ground game. Its one or the other. JDS has faced 2 BBJ Black Belts and his answer to their ground game was to KO them,

 

Fedor's win over Sylvia by submission good. Mir's win over Sylvia bad cause Tim has no ground game. Which is is it? Does submitting Sylvia only count if you are Russian?

 

Wedrum's loss to Big Nog is a loss to a top guy. Cain's win over Big Nog doesn't count. Werdum's loss was less than 4 years ago. Big Nog is only 33. Its not like Cain beat a 45 year old guy.

 

Reading it again for the young UFC HW you really made an effort to discredit their accomplishments while at the same time you went out of the way to down play the losses of the SF HW fighters to put them in a better light.

 

Both SF and UFC have good HW divisions right now. I give the experience nod to SF, but I give the UFC the nod in the fact their fights tend to have a more complete MMA game.[/quote']

 

 

well said. and more polite then me. ;-)

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nice quoting out of context.

 

You left out the rest of it where I pointed out how in the paragraph about Werdum the OP said werdum has only lost to top level fighters. But Werdum lost to JDS. So according to the OP DJS is not elite because we haven't seen his ground game AND he is elite because he beat Werdum.

 

I was not saying anything about JDS and his level of skill. I was saying that the OP has faulty contradictory logic.

 

... I was using your quote to educate the cigano impaired, it seemed like a good opening ..

didn't mean to step on your toe ... ;)

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Okay I'll now clarify some things about my post. Xhojin and uaqin both made very good comments on what I said.

 

First off' date=' the first post about the UFC's HW was not made to try to discredit them. They are all top fighters IMO. It's just to make some people realize that they aren't the almighty fighters that would crush anyone outside of the UFC. And this isn't "UFC fighters are bad and the ones outside are better". This is just "UFC fighters aren't as good as the UFC says and the ones outside are better than most give them credit for".

 

Also , the "outside of UFC HW" part was made in about 2 minutes. I did it really fast so now I'll clarify some things.

 

Now the Werdum thing was just a mistake on my part, he was beaten by proven fighters and one who wasn't proven(JDS).JDS stand-up is proven right now. Can't say anything bad about it. He KO'ed Werdum fairly fast, but Werdum was never(he improved now but still it's not top level) a striker. From what I have seen of JDS after that fight, he pretty much has the best striking in the UFC's HW division right now. No shame in losing to him.

 

For the Carwin vs Rogers thing, Alpha pretty much explained it. The way I see it, Arlovski is better then Gonzaga. Both Rogers and Carwin have 1 notable win, so I give the nod to Rogers because his win is against a better fighter. That being said, this might change after tonight if Carwin wins. But right now, Rogers is ahead by not much. Really, if someone said they are about equal I would have no problem with that. Also, some have pointed out that we haven't seen Rogers ground game. Well we have in his fight with Fedor. It wasn't very long, but he escaped a Kimura, reversed Fedor, did some pretty good GnP(which IMO would have KO'ed a lot of people) and escaped an armbar. He did this against a man who(IMO) has the second best ground game of any HW. And really, everyone should have Fedor in the top 3 HW ground game. Uaqin said he would give the nod to Carwin because Carwin has shown a much more complete game. I am fine with this. But really, you can put any of the 2 ahead of the other but they remain almost the same. Whichever is better for you, you have to admit he isn't better by much.(Unless you're a fanboy :P)

 

Xhojing said Fedor hasn't fought anyone good in ages. He is the only HW that has fought 3 top 10 ranked fighters and won recently. So really, that point isn't any good.

 

As far as Mir beating Sylvia not being as good as Fedor being Sylvia, there is a very good explanation for this. Mir beat Sylvia only on the ground. Fedor on the other hand, knocked down Sylvia and choked him out after. He did this faster than Mir too. Now some might say, well Fedor still won on the ground, but he could have just finished Sylvia with GnP at that point. Point is, Fedor outclassed Sylvia standing and on the ground. Mir did it only on the ground. Sylvia was always a striker so Fedor's win(IMO) is more impressive.

 

Also, the Cain vs Rogers point. Cain's 1 win isn't that great because Big Nog hasn't looked good for some time. The only fight he looked good was against Randy, but Randy is really showing signs of his age. Rogers' win against Arlovski looks way better IMO. Arlovski was on a 5 win streak, then lost to the best(rankings, not your opinion) HW in the world. He also looked good in all those fights, as opposed to Nog who looked pretty bad even when he won(although that isn't unheard of for Big Nog).

 

For Overeem, like I said it's hard to rank him. But we have seen he has crazy striking at HW(K-1 grand prix semi-finalist. We have also seen that he has a solid ground game(not elite) when he was a LHW. Skill doesn't just disappear so it's safe to say he's still solid.

 

uaqin also mentioned that Cain beating Big Nog is not impressive(It's impressive, but not as much as people make it to be. It was unexpected from a man that was nicknamed pillowfists tho :P) but Werdum losing to him is ok. Look at when the fights took place. When Werdum lost, Big Nog was the second best HW in the world and submit pretty much anyone(except Fedor). When Cain beat Big Nog, Big Nog had already been stopped by Mir. He had looked slow and old for 4 fights already.

 

So here is my answer to all these points. But like I said, I am not saying that the UFC is bad. They are great fighters. I am just saying that if they were all fighting in the same league, each and every fighter would put up a good fight against the rest. I can easily point out arguments that show that the UFC fighters are great, and the ones outside aren't(except for Fedor. Sorry but I just can't do it for him). I won't do this however because this is pretty much all that is done these days when we discuss the HW division.[/quote']

 

Thanks for the reply.. but you are still picking and choosing what makes someone good and what doesn' with great bias.

 

You say Rogers is good cus he beat arlovski.

You say JDS is not proven because we haven't seen his ground game.

 

We haven't seen much ground game from Rogers either. But you don't say Rogers isn't proven. And don't try to say Rogers has a submission. The other guy tapped due to strikes.

 

It's bias. Plain and simple.

 

That said.. I understand you trying to point out that some of the hype is BS and some of the fighters outside UFC are good. I agree. I think there are a lot of good fighters that are not in the UFC. I just don't agree that all the fighters you called good.. are actually still good. And I'm just saying your write up was lacking in logic to some extent.

 

I guess... I didn't post to argue against your point. I posted to argue against the reasoning that brought you to that point.

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Okay I'll now clarify some things about my post. Xhojin and uaqin both made very good comments on what I said.

 

First off' date=' the first post about the UFC's HW was not made to try to discredit them. They are all top fighters IMO. It's just to make some people realize that they aren't the almighty fighters that would crush anyone outside of the UFC. And this isn't "UFC fighters are bad and the ones outside are better". This is just "UFC fighters aren't as good as the UFC says and the ones outside are better than most give them credit for".

 

Also , the "outside of UFC HW" part was made in about 2 minutes. I did it really fast so now I'll clarify some things.

 

Now the Werdum thing was just a mistake on my part, he was beaten by proven fighters and one who wasn't proven(JDS).JDS stand-up is proven right now. Can't say anything bad about it. He KO'ed Werdum fairly fast, but Werdum was never(he improved now but still it's not top level) a striker. From what I have seen of JDS after that fight, he pretty much has the best striking in the UFC's HW division right now. No shame in losing to him.

 

For the Carwin vs Rogers thing, Alpha pretty much explained it. The way I see it, Arlovski is better then Gonzaga. Both Rogers and Carwin have 1 notable win, so I give the nod to Rogers because his win is against a better fighter. That being said, this might change after tonight if Carwin wins. But right now, Rogers is ahead by not much. Really, if someone said they are about equal I would have no problem with that. Also, some have pointed out that we haven't seen Rogers ground game. Well we have in his fight with Fedor. It wasn't very long, but he escaped a Kimura, reversed Fedor, did some pretty good GnP(which IMO would have KO'ed a lot of people) and escaped an armbar. He did this against a man who(IMO) has the second best ground game of any HW. And really, everyone should have Fedor in the top 3 HW ground game. Uaqin said he would give the nod to Carwin because Carwin has shown a much more complete game. I am fine with this. But really, you can put any of the 2 ahead of the other but they remain almost the same. Whichever is better for you, you have to admit he isn't better by much.(Unless you're a fanboy :P)

 

Xhojing said Fedor hasn't fought anyone good in ages. He is the only HW that has fought 3 top 10 ranked fighters and won recently. So really, that point isn't any good.

 

As far as Mir beating Sylvia not being as good as Fedor being Sylvia, there is a very good explanation for this. Mir beat Sylvia only on the ground. Fedor on the other hand, knocked down Sylvia and choked him out after. He did this faster than Mir too. Now some might say, well Fedor still won on the ground, but he could have just finished Sylvia with GnP at that point. Point is, Fedor outclassed Sylvia standing and on the ground. Mir did it only on the ground. Sylvia was always a striker so Fedor's win(IMO) is more impressive.

 

Also, the Cain vs Rogers point. Cain's 1 win isn't that great because Big Nog hasn't looked good for some time. The only fight he looked good was against Randy, but Randy is really showing signs of his age. Rogers' win against Arlovski looks way better IMO. Arlovski was on a 5 win streak, then lost to the best(rankings, not your opinion) HW in the world. He also looked good in all those fights, as opposed to Nog who looked pretty bad even when he won(although that isn't unheard of for Big Nog).

 

For Overeem, like I said it's hard to rank him. But we have seen he has crazy striking at HW(K-1 grand prix semi-finalist. We have also seen that he has a solid ground game(not elite) when he was a LHW. Skill doesn't just disappear so it's safe to say he's still solid.

 

uaqin also mentioned that Cain beating Big Nog is not impressive(It's impressive, but not as much as people make it to be. It was unexpected from a man that was nicknamed pillowfists tho :P) but Werdum losing to him is ok. Look at when the fights took place. When Werdum lost, Big Nog was the second best HW in the world and submit pretty much anyone(except Fedor). When Cain beat Big Nog, Big Nog had already been stopped by Mir. He had looked slow and old for 4 fights already.

 

So here is my answer to all these points. But like I said, I am not saying that the UFC is bad. They are great fighters. I am just saying that if they were all fighting in the same league, each and every fighter would put up a good fight against the rest. I can easily point out arguments that show that the UFC fighters are great, and the ones outside aren't(except for Fedor. Sorry but I just can't do it for him). I won't do this however because this is pretty much all that is done these days when we discuss the HW division.[/quote']

 

Nice follow up Mirko.

 

I agree Rogers and Carwin are pretty much a pick em at this point. Until they both match up with better fighters hard to say. I can say Carwin vs Rogers is a fight I would LOVE to see in the ring.

 

Mir is an enigma to me. I think they guy has all the natural talent in the world and never really applied himself to being a top fighter. I feel that has changed and the Mir we have seen of late is head and shoulders above where he was even 1 year ago.

 

Cain and JDS. I think most would agree that between the two organizations, these two are by FAR the best up and comers. They both have impressive skill sets and at 25 and 27 a long career ahead of them. I agree they aren't "there" but I think they will be.

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Thanks for the reply.. but you are still picking and choosing what makes someone good and what doesn' with great bias.

 

You say Rogers is good cus he beat arlovski.

You say JDS is not proven because we haven't seen his ground game.

 

We haven't seen much ground game from Rogers either. But you don't say Rogers isn't proven. And don't try to say Rogers has a submission. The other guy tapped due to strikes.

 

It's bias. Plain and simple.

 

That said.. I understand you trying to point out that some of the hype is BS and some of the fighters outside UFC are good. I agree. I think there are a lot of good fighters that are not in the UFC. I just don't agree that all the fighters you called good.. are actually still good. And I'm just saying your write up was lacking in logic to some extent.

 

I guess... I didn't post to argue against your point. I posted to argue against the reasoning that brought you to that point.

 

I am not showing the arguments that make the UFC fighters great and the rest bad because frankly, we have all seen them if we somewhat read these forums. But you see how easy it is to make some fighters look bad and others look good.

 

IMO, all the fighters I talked about are great. Some are more proven than others. Some are at the end of their career. Some are just starting. But they are all good fighters. In the future, some might even be considered the best in the world P4P if they keep performing like they do.

 

And I have JDS over Rogers btw :P.

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With all the HW discussions going on lately' date=' I thought it would be interesting to point out something I have noticed in the HW division.

 

Now I would like to say that this isn't hard facts, but just a way you can interpret what fights have shown us in the HW division.

 

So most people right now are saying that the UFC's HW division is stacked with talent right now. That they hold most of the talent in that division. But the truth is, these fighters might look good just because they are fighting other fighters who aren't so good.

 

Let's take a look at the top 5 in no particular order.

 

Shane Carwin

Carwin is a very strong(physically) fighter, no one can deny this. But let's take a look at his wins. He beat Gonzaga. Ending the fight with 1 punch in just over 1 minute might seem impressive, but the truth is he was getting dominated for the whole fight before that. Other than his one win over Gonzaga, he has no meaningful wins.

 

Junior Dos Santos

JDS is(IMO) the most impressive of the bunch. He has a stoppage of Werdum in just over a minute. He also beat Gonzaga fairly fast, and unlike Carwin wasn't in any trouble at all. He also beat Mirko, granted it is not the same Mirko that we saw in Pride but that is still a great accomplishment. There is no denying that JDS has a good striking game, but we have never seen his ground game against a skill fighter. I know people will say he trains with Big Nog so he must have a good ground game, but when you think about it, that makes no sense. Marquart also trains with GSP, and he couldn't stop 1 single takedown from Sonnen. So really his ground game is unknown so far. His only loss is also by submission, so this doesn't help his case.

 

Cain Velasquez

Cain has 1 impressive stoppage over Big Nog. Now for the people who have been watching the sport for a long time, we could all see that Big Nog was way slower than he used to be. His legendary chin wasn't there also. Now there may be 2 explanations to the chin. First, Cain hits like a truck. Second, Nog's repeated blows to the head finally caught up to him. But as I saw that Nog was also very slow, it leads me to believe it's the second explanation. Other then Nog, Cain beat a bunch of cans.

 

Frank Mir

Mir is really one of the hardest fighter to analyze out of the 5. Basically, he made a career out of ups and downs. He won the HW belt by submitting Sylvia. As we all know(or should know at least), Sylvia doesn't have a great ground game. It is still a very good win. He was also the first man to stop Big Nog. But Big Nog really doesn't look like he did a couple of years ago. He looks very slow compared to the Nog that was the #2 HW in the world for quite a while. He was also the only man to beat Brock Lesnar. Looking at that fight, we can see he was overwhelmed on. He caught a break when the ref stood the fight up(some may say that this was a bad call, since he didn't issue any warning) then submitted Lesnar. Lesnar was also on his second MMA fight, so he was very green. This might sound look like a stellar fighter, but we are also talking about the man who lost to Freeman, Cruz, Vera and got beat by Lesnar in the rematch. Now some might say that Freeman was early in his career, and that is completely right. But still, Freeman is not an elite fighter. Cruz and Vera fought him right after his accident, so some might say this was the reason for his shortcoming, we will never know 100% if that was the reason.

 

Brock Lesnar

To some, Lesnar might seem like this incredible fighter that managed to get the belt after only 4 fights. But let's look at his short career. He won over Mon-Soo Kim, not even worth mentioning but what the hell. Then he lost in his UFC debut against Mir, first fight against a fighter that isn't bad. He then beat Heath Herring. Herring was never an elite fighter to begin with, and when Brock fought him he was worst than he used to be.Then he beat the champion. At that time, the champion was a 44 year old man that is more suited to the LHW division. He then beat Mir in the rematch with an impressive performance.

 

So let's see what makes the division so great. Carwin is great because he beat a bunch of no-names(No offense here, I have respect for all fighters but I am talking about the "elite" here) and Gonzaga(who was never really a consistent fighter). JDS looked great standing against some good fighters, but he has never really faced a top 5 fighter or had his ground game tested. Velasquez beat a former legend but never really beat any current top fighters. Mir beat a man with no ground game, the same former legend that Velasquez beat and a guy who was on his second MMA fight. Lesnar lost to the man who lost to Freeman a Cruz(No-names) and Vera(LHW), he then beat a man who was never great and a 44 year old LHW. Then he got revenge for his first lost against the same man.

 

Now while some people might see the UFC, and believe all the hype that they build around their fighters(Nothing wrong with that, I would do the same if I had the business), some might look at it in another way. Some might think, well the division is really not that great. It's ruled by new-comers who never proved themselves, a guy who had a career of up and downs and a man who is only on his fifth pro fight.

 

Now of course, this HW division is the best it's ever been, but was never even decent so it's not hard to beat. The UFC is trying to label the division as stacked. IMO, it has a whole lot of fighter who are hyped like there is no tomorrow. If these fighters had exactly the same skills but were built like a LHW(one of the really stacked division), they would be lucky to be in the top 10 IMO.

 

So here you have it people, while the HW division is stacked compared to what it once was, it is not really full of talent. The fighters that compete are very green(Shane, Cain, JDS, Brock) or made a career while the division was at it's lowest and still managed to lose to a couple of mediocre fighters(Mir).[/quote']

 

AMEN,

 

but to put something in is Heath Herring was the **** between 2000 through 2005. We all saw what had happened to him after he fought Cro Cop, that spelled the end for Herring, but when he entered the UFC he was on his way out of the top 10 by losing to Jake O'Brien who lost to Arlovski.

 

Its true Nog hasnt looked good after the Timk Sylvia fight. That showed Nog taking to much punishment and got one of his eyes swollen up.

 

The Rodgers/Carwin example is in fact Correct. A win over Arlovski is far better than a win over Gonzaga since Werdum lost to Arlovski and Gonzaga lost twice to Werdum.

 

Note that all of Werdum loses have been against the top of the crop in MMA. JDS debut beating him, but look at where he is now prolly UFC's best fighter in the division.

 

Cain's win over Nog is credible though Nog isnt the same guy were used to seeing, Kongo was a ****ty one, but Rothwell was a credible one.

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Yea I wanted to compare them to HW outside of the UFC' date=' but I was getting sleepy lol. I'll do a really quick one right now, just stating the notable wins and losses some fighters without a lot of commentating. So let's start with the obvious.

 

Fedor Emelianenko.

34 total fights. Only 1 loss(controversial loss due to a cut that should have been a NC), other than that no real losses.

Beat Big Nog, Mirko, Coleman, Sylvia, Arlovski, Arona, Randleman, Sobral, Herring, Schilt, Lindland and I am skipping a bunch. Been tested on the ground and standing.

 

Wedum

Beat Gonzaga, Overeem, Vera and A. Emelianenko. Losses to JDS, Kharitonov and Big Nog and Arlovski. He has been tested standing and on the ground and all of his losses came from proven top fighters.

 

Rogers

Beat Arlovski. Only loss to Fedor. At least equal to Carwin(superior IMO since Arlovski is better than Gonzaga).

 

Barnett

Beat Severn, Schilt, Couture, A. Emelianenko, Hunt, Big Nog. Lost to Big Nog and Mirko(both while in their prime). Only reason people sometimes forget him is because of his problem with banned substances.

 

Overeem

Harder talk about since he used to fight LHW and is now a completely different monster. I am really to lazy to go through his LHW fights so I'll just say that he has been tested on the ground and standing. His stand up is one of the best(semi-finalist in the K-1 Grand Prix). He has never lost since he moved to HW full time.

 

I'll do it better like I did with the UFC fighters tomorrow but I am getting really sleepy right now. For now this is it.[/quote']

 

Barnett also beat Nog, and Overeem has beaten Roman Zentzov & Sergei Kharitonov when they were top 10(not zentzov)

 

People always wanna talk **** about the guys not in UFC, its their only excuse. But when their fighters are proven not be really credible they get angry about it.

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Shane Carwin

Carwin is a very strong(physically) fighter' date=' no one can deny this. But let's take a look at his wins. He beat Gonzaga. Ending the fight with 1 punch in just over 1 minute might seem impressive, but the truth is he was getting dominated for the whole fight before that. Other than his one win over Gonzaga, [b']he has no meaningful wins[/b].

 

Time to change this! Because he just KTFO Mir!

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Time to change this! Because he just KTFO Mir!

 

100% correct. As it stands right now, Carwin is ahead of Rogers. I was watching the fight, and I was going "Since when did Carwin become Randy Couture lol. All he does is knees to Frank's OMG WTF BRUTAL UPPERCUTS". That man has some serious power in those hands.

 

If Rogers beats Overeem when he fights him tho, it will be a hard one to call. Right now Carwin is ahead no doubt tho.

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100% correct. As it stands right now' date=' Carwin is ahead of Rogers. I was watching the fight, and I was going "Since when did Carwin become Randy Couture lol. All he does is knees to Frank's OMG WTF BRUTAL UPPERCUTS". That man has some serious power in those hands.

 

If Rogers beats Overeem when he fights him tho, it will be a hard one to call. Right now Carwin is ahead no doubt tho.[/quote']

 

LOL, If Rogers beats Overeem I think he'll take the lead again.

 

I feel bad for making this statement earlier. :(

 

Well' date=' you convinced me. Rogers > Carwin.[/size']

 

I should've never let Beserk convince me! grr :mad:

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100% correct. As it stands right now' date=' Carwin is ahead of Rogers. I was watching the fight, and I was going "Since when did Carwin become Randy Couture lol. All he does is knees to Frank's OMG WTF BRUTAL UPPERCUTS". That man has some serious power in those hands.

 

If Rogers beats Overeem when he fights him tho, it will be a hard one to call. Right now Carwin is ahead no doubt tho.[/quote']

non-title :

I'm going w/ rogers, overeem is stale-bread > that should also end any more speculation

about overeem vs fedor ... arlovski vs silva is difficult to handicap .. ?

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