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Chael Sonnen and Anderson Silva, and objective look.


Voice9686

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WARNING: This post is long. If you do not intend to read it thoroughly, then please don't bother wasting your and everyone else time with ill-informed and half baked thoughts. By no means is my opinion fact, if you care, read on, if not GTFO.

While I remain a fan of Chael Sonnen and could hardly be counted among Anderson Silvas fan base, this thread is simply an objective view (as objective as possible) of this fight, which seems to me to be far more interesting and dynamic than most people are giving it credit for.

 

As is customary, lets start with the challenger...

 

Chael Sonnen

Age: 33 Height: 6'1" Weight (class) 185lbs. Approx. Natural weight: 225 lbs.

Reach: 74 inches Stance: South Paw Base: Greco-Roman Wrestling, NCAA Division 1.

Association: Team Quest Fighting out of: Portland, Oregon.

Record: 24-10-1 KO/TKO: 7 wins, 2 losses. Submissions: 3 wins, 7 losses.

Strengths: Excellent Wrestling, Constant Pressure, Mental Endurance, Solid Chin, Cardio.

 

Chael Sonnen's record is the first thing people see, as is generally the case with almost all fighters, and it's certainly not the prettiest record around. 10 losses is hard to justify (unless you're Captain America), and with 7 of those coming by way of submissions, there certainly appears to be a gap, and a big one, in Sonnen's armor. Looking at these though we see that 5 of those submission losses came to naturally larger fighters. Twice to Jeremy Horn (who has a third win over Sonnen via TKO (Cut) ), and once each to Renato Sobral, Forrest Griffin and Trevor Prangley, all fighters who have fought at Light Heavy Weight for the majority of their careers. Sonnen has since beaten Prangley in a rematch, as well as beating Paulo Filho, who holds an earlier submission win against Sonnen. The sole submission loss on Sonnen's record since rejoining the UFC belongs to Demian Maia, who has shown perhaps the best pure jujitsu in the UFC, if not all of modern MMA. However, justifications aside, this is a clear weakness in Sonnen's game.

 

In all of Chael's fights that have gone the distance, which is the majority of them, only twice has the outcome been against the MW contender, with neither being a very convincing or dominant performance by his opponent. One was a Draw against Akihiro Gono, and the other a Majority Decision Loss to Keiichiro Yamamiya (two judges scored for Yamamiya and one scored it a draw). Both fights took place in the Pancrase Organization.

 

The two TKO losses on Chael's record are from a Cut (to Jeremy Horn) and a Corner Stoppage following the 2nd round (to Terry Martin). He's never been knocked out cold, never been terribly rocked standing. Perhaps the biggest lesson here is, when fighting Sonnen, put him away, and put him away early.

 

While a majority of his wins have come by way of Unanimous Decisions, few can argue that they are almost always largely one sided fights. Sonnen is a master of getting and keeping position and punishing his opponents from many places, including in their guard.

While a grinder, and not a finisher, Chael has stopped 10 of his opponents, 7 by why of TKO/KO and 3 via submission.

 

However what many (myself included) feel are Sonnen's finest performances are his previous 3 fights. All UD wins, all dominant performances.

 

Coming off a disappointing loss to BJJ Wizard Demain Maia, Sonnen stepped in to replace injured Yushin Okami to face Dan Miller at UFC 98. Taking the fight on 22 days notice, and losing 36 lbs in that time to compete, Sonnen turned in a convincing and compelling 3 round performance against the dangerous BJJ black belt.

 

Subsequently Chael would go on to face world ranked Middle weight main-stay Yushin "Thunder" Okami at UFC 104. Many felt Sonnen was simply a stepping stone for Okami to be back into the title mix at 185 lbs. With his powerful wrestling and crisper striking Okami seemed to be the well favored competitor. Apparently Sonnen didn't get that memo. The Oregon wrestler showed his dominant grappling in the first round, his improved and effective, if somewhat stiff striking in the second round, and a good blend of both throughout the third. The one constant, and what seemed to be the defining theme in the fight was the pressure. Chael came forward from the first second to the last bell and never let Okami get set.

 

This win over Okami, who's only other loss in the UFC is held by Former MW king Rich Franklin, Sonnen set himself up for a match with perceived #1 MW contender at the time, Nate Marquardt.

 

Marquardt had looked all but unstoppable in his previous 3 fights, polishing off dangerous (if undersized) contender Martin Kampmann in just 82 seconds then proceeding to finish Wilson Gouveia with a spectacular display of striking finesse in the third round of their clash at UFC 95. His next win would be the fastest of his career, if by only 6 seconds, as he smashed BJJ stalwart Demian Maia with a vicious right hand in only 21 seconds.

 

Marquardt was on top of the world, and only one man, Anderson Silva, was ahead of him by his estimation, and the estimations of nearly all the fans and critics. The fight, and pre assumed win over Sonnen was simply further solidification of his place as the #1 challenger to Silvas gold. He professed that Sonnen was a tough fight, a fighter who was good in all areas. He said Sonnes was a grinder, but that "I can grind too, and then I'll knock you out". Marquardt was going to steamroll Chael "I don't see any area where I'm not better than Chael". Apparently, Marquardt forgot about wrestling. The story of the fight, save for a guillotine attempt early, and a sweep in the closing seconds, was Chael Sonnen's wrestling. With multiple take downs, top control, and seemingly preternatural toughness, Sonnen continued to put Marquartd on his back and inflict shots.

 

It's perhaps not the flashiest style, nor one full of highlight reel moments, but Sonnen's toughness, persistence and strong base have netted him 3 straight one sided wins. Now he looks for his fourth, and the belt.

 

One man stands in his way; Anderson Silva.

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Anderson Silva

Age: 35 Height: 6'2" Weight (class) 185lbs. Approx. Natural weight: 228 lbs.

Reach: 77.6 inches Stance: South Paw Base: Muay Thai, BJJ, Tae Kwon Do

Black Belt in: Tae Kwion Do, BJJ, and Judo. Yellow Rope in: Capoeira

Association: Black House Fighting out of: Curitiba, Brazil

Record: 26-4 KO/TKO: 15 wins. Submissions: 4wins, 2 losses.

Strengths: Phenomenal Striker, BJJ Black Belt. Incredibly fast.

 

Currently riding an 11 fight win streak, the longest in UFC history Anderson Silva is seen by many to be the best "Pound for Pound" fighter on the planet. With deadly accurate strikes, incredible flexibility and speed, and a confidence that comes from being on top for so long, "The Spider" will surely be remembered as one of, if not the single greatest fighter of his day, possibly ever. But as of late the waters of that greatness seem to have been muddied by some... interesting performances. While his forays into the LHW sharks tank have netted him two devastating wins over tough striker James Irvin and fan favorite and former champion Forrest Griffin, his last three bouts at Middle Weight, where he holds the gold, have been fraught with criticism, showboating, and inaction. While not quite the lackluster seen in his most recent fights, the fire seemed to be fading somewhat for Anderson Silva as he stepped in to defend his belt against Patric "The Predator" C?t?. While advancing and striking at times, Silva seemed somewhat timid. Perhaps he had some respect for C?t?s power and hands, or maybe he was simply beginning to show the boredom that seems to have been his to carry into every fight against challengers he himself deems "unworthy". Whatever the case C?t? managed to be the first man in the UFC to go into the third round, and though a bit battered, "The Predator" seemed far from finished as the round started. However, just 39 seconds into the round, planting his feet for a combination, C?t? fell to the ground, in pain, grasping at his knee. He had blown his ACL, and the fight was over. The Booing ensued.

 

His next performance would be the first to receive wide spread criticism. For 25 minuted, "The Spider"s opponent, Thales Leites refused to engage on the feet, continuing instead to opt to fall to the ground, attempting to bait Anderson into a ground fight, where Leites felt he held the advantage. Silva seemed of similar mind set as he continued to refuse to go to the ground and instead waited multiple times for his opponent to rise again. The fight was slow by many peoples views, uneventful and frustrating. One can only imagine what Anderson Silva must have felt. Though he was criticized by some for not looking to finish the fight in a more aggressive fashion, perhaps even going to the ground to do so (after all, he is a Nogueira BJJ black belt), but most people were willing to give the Middle Weight kingpin one more chance.

 

The next title defense for Anderson would prove to be a far more perplexing fight in most peoples minds. Save for a few bursts in the opening rounds Anderson Silva opted to continue to taunt, dance, and do just about everything in the cage but fight then challenger Demian Maia. For 25 minutes the champion intermixed sporadic strikes with taunts and looks of disdain, even blatantly walking away from Maia on a few occasions. For his part Demain attempted to get the fight to the ground on numerous occasions, though no proved fruitful, and throwing caution to the wind he threw wild punches in the closing moments attempting to go for broke. Dana White, the fans, and keyboard warriors everywhere (myself included, I must admit) everywhere filled forums and blogs with their utter disgust at the champions antics and poor performance. For any excuse or justification the champion offered, criticism and insults flowed forth aplenty. Many people simply couldn't understand what had caused such an outrageous performance from the incredible fighter that is their Middle Weight champion.

 

The truth of that question may be simpler than most people could imagine. Besides reigning for so long, and continuing to fight opponents seemingly far below his skill level, Anderson Silva is, for all his well rounded-ness a very particular type of fighter. He is a counter striker, of the highest level. With pinpoint accuracy, lightning speed and surprisingly thunderous power Silva is a master of seeing, or creating openings in his opponents as they attack and come toward him. In those fleeting moments his years of training allow him to quickly dispatch blow after blow of powerful punches, kicks and knees that put most men to sleep. It's a mesmerizing display of fluid movement, power, and precision, honed over years of diligent training. It does, however, have its faults.

 

For all his power, precision and skill, Anderson Silva does not do well moving forward. And I mean that in the most literal sense. If an opponent refuses to engage recklessly, or at all, "The Spider" seems to have trouble committing to his strikes. He tentatively throws leg kicks, jabs, and the occasional flashy dance move, from the outside. But upon stepping into the wheelhouse of an opponent who is set and prepared, Silva seems to have difficulty in finding that opening as easily. In the few moments that he engaged Maia and stood in the pocket Maia was able to land a few well timed left hands, and if the look on his face or the subsequent rounds are any indication of it, Anderson didn't like the feel of those solid punches. Demian, not known for much more than incredible jujitsu, landed technically sounds left crosses from the pocket, and were he to posses the power of some of the more feared strikers in the sport, it's likely Silva would have done more than simply not enjoy it, he may have never known what hit him.

 

In his most dominant wins Silva has quickly dispatched opponents who come forward in an aggressive attack (Leben, Griffin, Irvin) so an opponent who doesn't do this already posses a problem for the counter-striking phenom. Perhaps his only other weakness has been his wrestling, but with a BJJ black belt Anderson is more than able to handle himself on the ground.He however holds only 4 submission wins (and two were to strikes). He has been submitted in the past, and despite a DQ loss to Yushin "Thunder" Okami and a split decision in his first ever MMA fight, "The Spider" has only tasted defeat twice, on the wrong end of a submission hold. Maybe it's these losses that make the champion reluctant to engage in ground wars, but whatever the case may be, the only rounds not scored in his favor in his UFC career have been to opponents who were able to put him on his back, maintain position and ground and pound. However neither of these fighters was able to duplicate that feat and both were summarily submitted.

 

A man truly on top of the world, and on another planet compared to the rest of his weight class Anderson "The Spider" Silva seems like just to man to retire with the belt and undefeated in his UFC career.

 

Chael Sonnen seeks to end all that.

 

And for all we know, Sonnen may be just the man to do that. With strong wrestling, disciplined hands, and constant, but hardly ever reckless pressure, Chael could have the secret formula to beat Silva.

 

One would assume (and could very well be wrong) that in this Middle weight clash Anderson Silva will want to keep the fight standing, and goad his opponent into a striking match where he can land lethal counters and end the fight. But if past performances show anything it's that when the fight doesn't go his way, "The Spider" may literally throw a temper tantrum. When feeling disrespected Silva chooses his way to punish his opponent, and the fans in the process. Chael Sonnen has, at the VERY least, disrespected Anderson Silva. With a politicians mouth, a wrestlers confidence and the momentum of three solid wins behind him, Sonnen has let his mouth do the work, pervading what has been some of the most comical, and critical pre-fight "Trash talk" in recent history. When asked of his game plan against such a dangerous fighter Chael simply remarked. "I'm going to get hit, and it's going to hurt, but if I'm not out I'll get my hands on him, pick him up, and put him on his prissy little ****" With a light amount of interpretation we can see Sonnen plans to get the fight to the ground, and win in the fashion that has taken him this far. Through sheer toughness, grit, and strong wrestling he plans to dethrone the Middle Weight ruler and he may just do it.

 

However, if while closing the distance he isn't perfect with his hands and feet Sonnen will get put down, and possibly out early. If he manages to shoot on Anderson or drag him to the ground, he will have to be careful of a very long and dangerous guard and an active bottom game from the champion. He has to keep his shoulders in tight, his neck tucked low and land damage constantly. Pressure is his tool, and his friend here. Though his cardio has never been questioned, Anderson Silva may not have the right tool that night to respond to that kind of pressure, especially off his back, with a powerful wrestler on top of him. Anderson will likely, seek to sweep or regain his feet quickly where he can use his reach and strikes to end the match. I don't think he will opt for submission attempts from his back though, because these will leave gaps for Sonnen to advance position. And while Sonnen seems content most times to sit in an opponents guard and do damage from there, given the opening, with the tight space he keeps, he will advance and seal the deal.

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"The Spider" will obviously be a dominant favorite going into this fight, his record and skill set simply cant be ignored, but I personally don't see him steamrolling Sonnen as quickly as everyone is expecting. I see this being a five round war, assuming Silva is there to fight, and not dance. I personally think that the deciding factor may be who wants it the most, and who the tougher man is. And in those areas, if in no other, I feel Sonnen has the champion beat.

 

Long winded as it was, Thanks to any who read through this all. I simply wrote it to further explore the two fighters in this compelling match up, which I see as more dynamic and interesting than most people are giving it credit for. Expect a five round war of grit and will. If "The Spider" of old shows up that night, this one will be a barn burner, one for the record books.

 

In closing, the motivation is there for both these fighter to put on a show. Controlled pressure and grit against calm determination and speed. And in the end, I think we the fans truly win here. Don't count Sonnen out, if nothing else, he comes to fight.

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Good read.

 

I do think that Chael is in for a serious beating tho. His style is perfect for Silva, any time Silva has fought an aggresive opponent, well, look what happened to Forest.

 

I'm also thinkging that Silva may wish to toy with Sonnen due to the afore mentioned trash talking, I think he will want to punish Sonnen, pick him apart, humiliate him.

 

I don't see Sonnen as someone who can finish fights either, so this should also be to Silvas advantage.

 

I wanna see Silva vs GSP, Silva vs W Silva and Silva vs Lesnar.

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tl;dr version here

 

-Silva is a great striker, he has shown weakness to people who put him on his back and submissions. He also had lackluster performances against people who didn't engage.

 

-Sonnen is a great wrestler with a good chin. He is a grinder and tries to grind his way to decision. He has shown weakness to submissions.

 

-Silva vs Sonnen will be a competitive match and you think it will end in a decision.

 

So many words to say only this.

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Good read.

 

I do think that Chael is in for a serious beating tho. His style is perfect for Silva' date=' any time Silva has fought an aggresive opponent, well, look what happened to Forest.

 

I'm also thinkging that Silva may wish to toy with Sonnen due to the afore mentioned trash talking, I think he will want to punish Sonnen, pick him apart, humiliate him.

 

I don't see Sonnen as someone who can finish fights either, so this should also be to Silvas advantage.

 

I wanna see Silva vs GSP, Silva vs W Silva and Silva vs Lesnar.[/quote']

 

Aggression certainly plays to Anderson's strengths, but I think that the usual catalyst for the fight ending is the reckless aggression that has been sent his way. Sonnen won't seek to engage on the feet, but he wont be moving backwards all night either, and that will frustrate Silva. He will have to move into Sonnen to start the engagements and if he lands on his back a few times due to that, it may very well lead to him losing a UD.

 

I agree that Sonnen is in for a tough fight, and a beating win, loss, or draw, but if he can maintain his composure WHILE applying pressure, he's got more than a fair chance.

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tl;dr version here

 

-Silva is a great striker' date=' he has shown weakness to people who put him on his back and submissions. He also had lackluster performances against people who didn't engage.

 

-Sonnen is a great wrestler with a good chin. He is a grinder and tries to grind his way to decision. He has shown weakness to submissions.

 

-Silva vs Sonnen will be a competitive match and you think it will end in a decision.

 

So many words to say only this.[/quote']

 

While your synopsis of the bulk is fairly close you seem to have missed all the subtlety of the post. tl;dr indeed.

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Nice Titan graph hardly anyone will read it...

 

 

 

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WARNING: This post is long. If you do not intend to read it thoroughly' date=' then please don't bother wasting your and everyone else time with ill-informed and half baked thoughts. By no means is my opinion fact, if you care, read on, if not GTFO.[/size']

While I remain a fan of Chael Sonnen and could hardly be counted among Anderson Silvas fan base, this thread is simply an objective view (as objective as possible) of this fight, which seems to me to be far more interesting and dynamic than most people are giving it credit for.

 

As is customary, lets start with the challenger...

 

Chael Sonnen

Age: 33 Height: 6'1" Weight (class) 185lbs. Approx. Natural weight: 225 lbs.

Reach: 74 inches Stance: South Paw Base: Greco-Roman Wrestling, NCAA Division 1.

Association: Team Quest Fighting out of: Portland, Oregon.

Record: 24-10-1 KO/TKO: 7 wins, 2 losses. Submissions: 3 wins, 7 losses.

Strengths: Excellent Wrestling, Constant Pressure, Mental Endurance, Solid Chin, Cardio.

 

Chael Sonnen's record is the first thing people see, as is generally the case with almost all fighters, and it's certainly not the prettiest record around. 10 losses is hard to justify (unless you're Captain America), and with 7 of those coming by way of submissions, there certainly appears to be a gap, and a big one, in Sonnen's armor. Looking at these though we see that 5 of those submission losses came to naturally larger fighters. Twice to Jeremy Horn (who has a third win over Sonnen via TKO (Cut) ), and once each to Renato Sobral, Forrest Griffin and Trevor Prangley, all fighters who have fought at Light Heavy Weight for the majority of their careers. Sonnen has since beaten Prangley in a rematch, as well as beating Paulo Filho, who holds an earlier submission win against Sonnen. The sole submission loss on Sonnen's record since rejoining the UFC belongs to Demian Maia, who has shown perhaps the best pure jujitsu in the UFC, if not all of modern MMA. However, justifications aside, this is a clear weakness in Sonnen's game.

 

In all of Chael's fights that have gone the distance, which is the majority of them, only twice has the outcome been against the MW contender, with neither being a very convincing or dominant performance by his opponent. One was a Draw against Akihiro Gono, and the other a Majority Decision Loss to Keiichiro Yamamiya (two judges scored for Yamamiya and one scored it a draw). Both fights took place in the Pancrase Organization.

 

The two TKO losses on Chael's record are from a Cut (to Jeremy Horn) and a Corner Stoppage following the 2nd round (to Terry Martin). He's never been knocked out cold, never been terribly rocked standing. Perhaps the biggest lesson here is, when fighting Sonnen, put him away, and put him away early.

 

While a majority of his wins have come by way of Unanimous Decisions, few can argue that they are almost always largely one sided fights. Sonnen is a master of getting and keeping position and punishing his opponents from many places, including in their guard.

While a grinder, and not a finisher, Chael has stopped 10 of his opponents, 7 by why of TKO/KO and 3 via submission.

 

However what many (myself included) feel are Sonnen's finest performances are his previous 3 fights. All UD wins, all dominant performances.

 

Coming off a disappointing loss to BJJ Wizard Demain Maia, Sonnen stepped in to replace injured Yushin Okami to face Dan Miller at UFC 98. Taking the fight on 22 days notice, and losing 36 lbs in that time to compete, Sonnen turned in a convincing and compelling 3 round performance against the dangerous BJJ black belt.

 

Subsequently Chael would go on to face world ranked Middle weight main-stay Yushin "Thunder" Okami at UFC 104. Many felt Sonnen was simply a stepping stone for Okami to be back into the title mix at 185 lbs. With his powerful wrestling and crisper striking Okami seemed to be the well favored competitor. Apparently Sonnen didn't get that memo. The Oregon wrestler showed his dominant grappling in the first round, his improved and effective, if somewhat stiff striking in the second round, and a good blend of both throughout the third. The one constant, and what seemed to be the defining theme in the fight was the pressure. Chael came forward from the first second to the last bell and never let Okami get set.

 

This win over Okami, who's only other loss in the UFC is held by Former MW king Rich Franklin, Sonnen set himself up for a match with perceived #1 MW contender at the time, Nate Marquardt.

 

Marquardt had looked all but unstoppable in his previous 3 fights, polishing off dangerous (if undersized) contender Martin Kampmann in just 82 seconds then proceeding to finish Wilson Gouveia with a spectacular display of striking finesse in the third round of their clash at UFC 95. His next win would be the fastest of his career, if by only 6 seconds, as he smashed BJJ stalwart Demian Maia with a vicious right hand in only 21 seconds.

 

Marquardt was on top of the world, and only one man, Anderson Silva, was ahead of him by his estimation, and the estimations of nearly all the fans and critics. The fight, and pre assumed win over Sonnen was simply further solidification of his place as the #1 challenger to Silvas gold. He professed that Sonnen was a tough fight, a fighter who was good in all areas. He said Sonnes was a grinder, but that "I can grind too, and then I'll knock you out". Marquardt was going to steamroll Chael "I don't see any area where I'm not better than Chael". Apparently, Marquardt forgot about wrestling. The story of the fight, save for a guillotine attempt early, and a sweep in the closing seconds, was Chael Sonnen's wrestling. With multiple take downs, top control, and seemingly preternatural toughness, Sonnen continued to put Marquartd on his back and inflict shots.

 

It's perhaps not the flashiest style, nor one full of highlight reel moments, but Sonnen's toughness, persistence and strong base have netted him 3 straight one sided wins. Now he looks for his fourth, and the belt.

 

One man stands in his way; Anderson Silva.

 

i love that disclaimer...

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Nice Titan graph hardly anyone will read it...

 

 

 

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Must be tough, I mean, seeing a whole big post full of information when you seem to be unable to form a comment that averages more than about 10 words... and is generally useless.

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Nice Titan graph hardly anyone will read it...

 

 

 

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I thought it was a great read... But!..

 

Against Forrest And Leben, Anderson was moving forward the whole time in those matches.

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I thought it was a great read... But!..

 

Against Forrest And Leben' date=' Anderson was moving forward the whole time in those matches.[/quote']

 

While I agree, Anderson attacked in both those fights, in neither was he moving forward for much of the fight. He let Leben lead into him, hurt him with counter strikes THEN went on the offensive. Same situation against Forrest, he attacked, but he let Griffin's aggression set up his shots. The three times that Forrest was dropped were counter shots, the knock-out blow (or final knock down blow) was a fade away right cross, damn near a jab, but "The Spider" was moving backwards.

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