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Past Prime? or MMA evolving?


Randizzle_KO

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My question is: Has some fighters passed their prime, or has MMA fighters/styles evolved?

My answer is fighters have passed their prime. but yes MMA has evolved. Examples:

 

Matt Hughes - rulled the WW division for a long time with his Wrestling, GnP and subs.

Brock Lesnar and GSP fight in a similar way as Matt Hughes and they are doing very well at the moment in their careers.

Another example:

Royce Gracie - rulled early ufc with his BJJ that no one else really knew about.

Demien Maia fights very similar to Royce Gracie and look how he has been doing

 

Maybe the answer can be both, but i personally think its more that fighters have passed their prime..

 

Please comment on what you think, thanks. I may be wrong on some things too so feel free to correct me

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I think it's mostly past their prime in the speed sense. If your semi one dimensional even than your opponent knows what your plan is. This means you have to be very fast to catch your opponent. The more diverse you are the more you can mix it up and catch the fighter off guard even if your speed is not up to par.

 

For example. Hughes is pretty much a pure wrestler. Everyone that fights Hughes knows that his best weapon is his wrestling. As he ages and slows people can more easily be ready for the take down.

 

If your like GSP where your striking is as dangerous as your takedowns you need to be on guard for both so even when GSP slows down it will be hard to stop his takedowns or defend his striking because you don't know for sure what is coming next.

 

Also the longer a fighter fights and the more tape that is available out there so the more an opponent knows what to watch for.

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I think it's mostly past their prime in the speed sense. If your semi one dimensional even than your opponent knows what your plan is. This means you have to be very fast to catch your opponent. The more diverse you are the more you can mix it up and catch the fighter off guard even if your speed is not up to par.

 

For example. Hughes is pretty much a pure wrestler. Everyone that fights Hughes knows that his best weapon is his wrestling. As he ages and slows people can more easily be ready for the take down.

 

If your like GSP where your striking is as dangerous as your takedowns you need to be on guard for both so even when GSP slows down it will be hard to stop his takedowns or defend his striking because you don't know for sure what is coming next.

 

Also the longer a fighter fights and the more tape that is available out there so the more an opponent knows what to watch for.

 

I agree, also another example can be Chuck Liddell and Shane Carwin.

Chuck rulled LHW division with his good striking/ KO power/Karate and good wrestling to prevent TD's

Shane Carwin? So far hes running threw the HW division with his KO power and good wrestling skills (hardley ever seen but we know he has it)

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I honestly think it's just loss of skill and moving away from prime... In my opinion, Anderson Silva is no more impressive than Wanderlei was back in PRIDE, but Wanderlei would never even come close to Anderson now.

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I think it's mostly past their prime in the speed sense. If your semi one dimensional even than your opponent knows what your plan is. This means you have to be very fast to catch your opponent. The more diverse you are the more you can mix it up and catch the fighter off guard even if your speed is not up to par.

 

For example. Hughes is pretty much a pure wrestler. Everyone that fights Hughes knows that his best weapon is his wrestling. As he ages and slows people can more easily be ready for the take down.

 

If your like GSP where your striking is as dangerous as your takedowns you need to be on guard for both so even when GSP slows down it will be hard to stop his takedowns or defend his striking because you don't know for sure what is coming next.

 

Also the longer a fighter fights and the more tape that is available out there so the more an opponent knows what to watch for.

 

If Gsp striking is dangerous then how come he cant seem to finish his fights?

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I honestly think it's just loss of skill and moving away from prime... In my opinion' date=' Anderson Silva is no more impressive than Wanderlei was back in PRIDE, but Wanderlei would never even come close to Anderson now.[/quote']

I totally disagree, their styles are so disimilar it's hard to compare.

 

Wandy was a berseker predator, and Silva is mostly about movement and counterstriking; the only thing you can really compare is their clinch game.

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I agree that ageing has a large part to play in Wandy's and Hughes's decline but the evolution is undeniable. I remember rogan talking about it in one of the past ppv's that mma is becoming its own discipline now that fighters need to be able to at least defend boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, BJJ and wrestling (freestyle and Greco-Roman) in order to have a good chance of success compared to the days when BJJ then wrestling just dominated.

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My question is: Has some fighters passed their prime' date=' or has MMA fighters/styles evolved?

My answer is fighters have passed their prime. but yes MMA has evolved. Examples:

 

Matt Hughes - rulled the WW division for a long time with his Wrestling, GnP and subs.

Brock Lesnar and GSP fight in a similar way as Matt Hughes and they are doing very well at the moment in their careers.

Another example:

Royce Gracie - rulled early ufc with his BJJ that no one else really knew about.

Demien Maia fights very similar to Royce Gracie and look how he has been doing

 

Maybe the answer can be both, but i personally think its more that fighters have passed their prime..

 

Please comment on what you think, thanks. I may be wrong on some things too so feel free to correct me[/quote']

The sport has evolved rather rapidly in the last five years, it wasn't that long ago that the reigning HW champ was Tim Sylvia.

 

Fighters are simply much more well rounded now than they used to be; the level of technical striking has advanced rather dramatically and there are greater percentage of strong, well conditioned athletes.

 

It has much more to do with evolution than fighters "aging"; Hughes certainly didn't lose to GSP because he was "old", he lost because GSP is a more well rounded fighter and a better athlete.

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Also some of Couture's greatest success in the last 2 years have come from his boxing evolution: in the Sylvia and Gonzaga fights he at least held his own and then dominated Sylvia. Even the Nog fight his stand up was in a different league to his earlier greco-only days.

 

The sign of a great thread topic is when you can get to page 2 with only one troll/idiot post

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Definitely evolving....I think fighters have started to realize that ONE skill isnt enough. It no longer works. You have to be well rounded. Thats why Randy Couture can still compete compared to Mark Coleman. Coleman is as One dimentional as they get. Great wrestler, good GnP, and was great for back in his day, but he refused to evolve.

 

Couture on the other hand is as well rounded as anybody in the game if not more....why?? Because way back he started realizing one style of fighting isnt going to work anymore. If you remember he was a straight wrestler when he came to the UFC, take people down quickly and GnP. But now look at him, Not even the same guy. His stand up is sharp crisp precise and his submission defense is off the charts. He outstrikes strikers, he outwrestles wrestlers, he outgrapples grapplers. The man is my hero and he keeps evolving at 47 years of age. God Damn He is the man.

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Please troll somewhere else moron.

 

This thread isn't about GSP

 

O Im sorry did I hut your feelings talking bout your man-crush? Screw you punk! Im not the moron working the register at subway like you! It was just a question to him not YOU!!!! Maybe your mother should have swallowed instead of spreading her legs then we could have one less dumb a s s in this world!!

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O Im sorry did I hut your feelings talking bout your man-crush? Screw you punk! Im not the moron working the register at subway like you! It was just a question to him not YOU!!!! Maybe your mother should have swallowed instead of spreading her legs then we could have one less dumb a s s in this world!!

 

Dude thats not right. He called you out and rightfully so. You totally changed subjects because of one comment that MD made. Just chill out man go troll about GSP somewhere else.

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O Im sorry did I hut your feelings talking bout your man-crush? Screw you punk! Im not the moron working the register at subway like you! It was just a question to him not YOU!!!! Maybe your mother should have swallowed instead of spreading her legs then we could have one less dumb a s s in this world!!

Wow....slow down speedy...you suddenly became REALLY angry for no reason....

 

And because I pointed out you were trolling in a thread that had nothing to do with GSP I "work the counter at Subway" and have a "man-crush" on GSP?

 

Good job kid, you are a winner; go hit a heavy bag or something before you give yourself an aneurysm, and try to respond to the topic of thread instead of telling everyone how much you don't like George.

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Also some of Couture's greatest success in the last 2 years have come from his boxing evolution: in the Sylvia and Gonzaga fights he at least held his own and then dominated Sylvia. Even the Nog fight his stand up was in a different league to his earlier greco-only days.

 

The sign of a great thread topic is when you can get to page 2 with only one troll/idiot post

 

I agree with you, and thanks a lot

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Dude thats not right. He called you out and rightfully so. You totally changed subjects because of one comment that MD made. Just chill out man go troll about GSP somewhere else.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that was a wee bit of an overreaction...

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Definitely evolving....I think fighters have started to realize that ONE skill isnt enough. It no longer works. You have to be well rounded. Thats why Randy Couture can still compete compared to Mark Coleman. Coleman is as One dimentional as they get. Great wrestler' date=' good GnP, and was great for back in his day, but he refused to evolve.

 

Couture on the other hand is as well rounded as anybody in the game if not more....why?? Because way back he started realizing one style of fighting isnt going to work anymore. If you remember he was a straight wrestler when he came to the UFC, take people down quickly and GnP. But now look at him, Not even the same guy. His stand up is sharp crisp precise and his submission defense is off the charts. He outstrikes strikers, he outwrestles wrestlers, he outgrapples grapplers. The man is my hero and he keeps evolving at 47 years of age. God Damn He is the man.[/quote']

Yes indeed.

 

There's certainly a reason that man is still making for competetive fights with guys young enough to be his kids.

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I don't think all fighters listed are past their primes. It's just MMA has evolved from the One dimesional type of training. The future of the UFC isn't really full of specialists, it's about being well-rounded. Look at GSP, A. Silva (Yes he has good ground game), Marquardt, Shogun, etc. These guys all have the tools to beat you in multiple ways. Not just BJJ or wrestling, but they have striking as well.

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ok ok ok sorry but it was a question to him bc he was from canada just wanted his opinion thats all!! then joe blow called me a moron so me being on my 12th beer took it the wrong way sorry! im sure you have a nice job. But I wasnt trying to change the subject thats why I clicked on his comment so it was to him not to everyone else!!! sorry!!

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MMA is all about the styles of the fighters. Matt Hughes is a great wrestler so if he is fighting a great striker he takes them down no problem and pounds out a decision. If he is fighting a BJJ guy he strikes a lil then takes them down and they cant do anything with him on top of them. the only thing that can beat good wrestlers is good wrestlers thats why GSP was the one to take out Hughes

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ok ok ok sorry but it was a question to him bc he was from canada just wanted his opinion thats all!! then joe blow called me a moron so me being on my 12th beer took it the wrong way sorry! im sure you have a nice job. But I wasnt trying to change the subject thats why I clicked on his comment so it was to him not to everyone else!!! sorry!!

No worries man, I certainly wasn't offended by your rant; I KNOW I have a nice job.

 

I appreciate the apology, just try to be a little less aggressive eh?

 

I certainly wasn't attacking you personally, if that was a legitimate question that you wanted answered that's fair, but it certainly read as just another guy hating on George.

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MMA is all about the styles of the fighters. Matt Hughes is a great wrestler so if he is fighting a great striker he takes them down no problem and pounds out a decision. If he is fighting a BJJ guy he strikes a lil then takes them down and they cant do anything with him on top of them. the only thing that can beat good wrestlers is good wrestlers thats why GSP was the one to take out Hughes

 

There are certain cases where great wrestlers get beat by others such as Penn beating Diego, or Anderson beating Hendo. Also Nog beat Couture

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MMA is all about the styles of the fighters. Matt Hughes is a great wrestler so if he is fighting a great striker he takes them down no problem and pounds out a decision. If he is fighting a BJJ guy he strikes a lil then takes them down and they cant do anything with him on top of them. the only thing that can beat good wrestlers is good wrestlers thats why GSP was the one to take out Hughes

And I'll disagree with you there brother.

 

Dropping Hughes with a headkick and pounding him out had nothing to do with his wrestling, and the way Alves destroyed Hughes didn't have anything to do with wrestling either.

 

The level of striking is much more techincal now than before, and there isn't a single one-diminesional champ to be found, with the possible exception of Lesnar; however, when you're a house that has frozen turkeys for hands, the rules apply to you less.

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First, how do you define prime? How do you gauge it? Don't give me age or half the comments in this thread go out the window. Example, a few peeps talking about W. Silva nd A. Silva in their primes. I get the impression people feel A.Silva is in his prime now, and Wanderlei was in his during Pride? Yeah, well Anderson is about three years older, so throw age out the window. Age certainly plays a role, but it has as much to do with how a guy fights. Guys like Wanderlei, Rampage, etc etc will nevr fight into their 40's like a Couture as their fighting style is so hard on the body. Whereas guys loike A. Silva, Machida etc would likely physically be able to do so as they tend to take far less damage in their fights due to their style. The average fight fan loves the bangers like Liddell, Rampage, W. Silva, but tend to be quick with the critique when they start to lose. You know what, father time and hard fighting catches up with fighters like that. As for Hughes, yeah age caught up with him a bit maybe, but just because a guy dominates for a while doesn't mean someone simply better won't come along.

 

So, my answer, a bit of both. But for the average fan a guy loses once or twice and he is done in their mind, so it is very subjective and usually has nothing to do with factual age. I read a comment from a guy once talking about how old W. Silva is...dude is like 31. But he has been fighting a long time, and has had some wars. Price you pay for that fight style.

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No worries man' date=' I certainly wasn't offended by your rant; I KNOW I have a nice job.

 

I appreciate the apology, just try to be a little less aggressive eh?

 

I certainly wasn't attacking you personally, if that was a legitimate question that you wanted answered that's fine, but it certainly read as just another guy hating on George.[/quote']

 

Its all good I did go overboard but im drunk just trying to spell correct thats all. I do like Gsp tho I root 4 him every fight so it was more of me being dissappointed in jorge so just wanted somone's opinion from canada thats all sorry!!

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There are certain cases where great wrestlers get beat by others such as Penn beating Diego' date=' or Anderson beating Hendo. Also Nog beat Couture[/quote']

Yep.

 

All cases of great standup too.

 

I think that the Nog/Couture fight might be my all-time favorite; such a dramatic back and forth battle.

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First' date=' how do you define prime? How do you gauge it? Don't give me age or half the comments in this thread go out the window. Example, a few peeps talking about W. Silva nd A. Silva in their primes. I get the impression people feel A.Silva is in his prime now, and Wanderlei was in his during Pride? Yeah, well Anderson is about three years older, so throw age out the window. Age certainly plays a role, but it has as much to do with how a guy fights. Guys like Wanderlei, Rampage, etc etc will nevr fight into their 40's like a Couture as their fighting style is so hard on the body. Whereas guys loike A. Silva, Machida etc would likely physically be able to do so as they tend to take far less damage in their fights due to their style. The average fight fan loves the bangers like Liddell, Rampage, W. Silva, but tend to be quick with the critique when they start to lose. You know what, father time and hard fighting catches up with fighters like that. As for Hughes, yeah age caught up with him a bit maybe, but just because a guy dominates for a while doesn't mean someone simply better won't come along.

 

So, my answer, a bit of both. But for the average fan a guy loses once or twice and he is done in their mind, so it is very subjective and usually has nothing to do with factual age. I read a comment from a guy once talking about how old W. Silva is...dude is like 31. But he has been fighting a long time, and has had some wars. Price you pay for that fight style.[/quote']

 

Perfect answer! Dont know what else to say

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Yep.

 

All cases of great standup too.

 

I think that the Nog/Couture fight might be my all-time favorite; such a dramatic back and forth battle.

 

Yeah that fight really ended a pretty good card. I think Randy kinda got owned though. As long as good strikers can defend a takedown attempt they can beat wrestlers IMO

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Yep.

 

All cases of great standup too.

 

I think that the Nog/Couture fight might be my all-time favorite; such a dramatic back and forth battle.

 

I agree. Couture vs Nog was one of the best most memorable fights of recent memory. I dont get how people talk sh*t on either of these guys?? Oh Nog couldnt submit him, or Couture got outboxed.....just crazy talk!!! Hands down one of the best fights ever I just wished it was 5 rounds.

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Its all good I did go overboard but im drunk just trying to spell correct thats all. I do like Gsp tho I root 4 him every fight so it was more of me being dissappointed in jorge so just wanted somone's opinion from canada thats all sorry!!

Apology accepted.

 

And yeah I too was disappointed in his sloppy JJ against Hardy; there is absolutely no way the fight should have lasted longer than that armbar.

 

I don't really think you can fault him him for the beatings he gave Fitch/Penn/Alves though, especially considering his torn groin during the ALves fight; that being said, if he doesn't embarrass and demoralize Kos I might not watch him fight again until he moves up; I know he likes to play the villain, but that clown needs a whooping the way Bisping and Rashad used to.

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Yeah that fight really ended a pretty good card. I think Randy kinda got owned though. As long as good strikers can defend a takedown attempt they can beat wrestlers IMO

I would say that's generally true, so long as the wrestler can't strike as well, which is happening less and less now.

 

I certainly wouldn't say Randy got "owned", though Nog certainly won they both gave each other some great shots, Nog can just take them better; Randy had some wicked dirty boxing in that fight.

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Apology accepted.

 

And yeah I too was disappointed in his sloppy JJ against Hardy; there is absolutely no way the fight should have lasted longer than that armbar.

 

most people would have tapped to that armbar or kimura....Hardy earned ALOT of respect in my book. Seriously looked like he was giving birth and he didnt tap. Tough SOB.

 

I dont think it was sloppy, I think he just should have went for a choke instead of the armbars. He doesnt have to tap to a choke, he will just PTFO. hahahaha I like that. Pass the f*** out!!! =) Coin phrase, I want a nickle everytime it is said.

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My question is: Has some fighters passed their prime' date=' or has MMA fighters/styles evolved?

My answer is fighters have passed their prime. but yes MMA has evolved. Examples:

 

Matt Hughes - rulled the WW division for a long time with his Wrestling, GnP and subs.

Brock Lesnar and GSP fight in a similar way as Matt Hughes and they are doing very well at the moment in their careers.

Another example:

Royce Gracie - rulled early ufc with his BJJ that no one else really knew about.

Demien Maia fights very similar to Royce Gracie and look how he has been doing

 

Maybe the answer can be both, but i personally think its more that fighters have passed their prime..

 

Please comment on what you think, thanks. I may be wrong on some things too so feel free to correct me[/quote']

 

yeah very valid points i sometimes wonder, it seams to be the case for some but not all, look at shogun

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I would say that's generally true' date=' so long as the wrestler can't strike as well, which is happening less and less now.

 

I certainly wouldn't say Randy got "owned", though Nog certainly won they both gave each other some great shots, Nog can just take them better; Randy had some wicked dirty boxing in that fight.[/quote']

 

Yeah he always has been a good dirty boxer, but that night he didn't seem like himself Idk it just seemed that the whole fight he was getting beat from what i remember.

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yeah very valid points i sometimes wonder' date=' it seams to be the case for some but not all, look at shogun[/quote']

 

I never thought Shogun passed his prime, i just thought that he was coming off a bad injury and needed time to heal up and get used to fighting again. Hes had a recent surgery but now i think you will see Shogun at his peak very soon if not now

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most people would have tapped to that armbar or kimura....Hardy earned ALOT of respect in my book. Seriously looked like he was giving birth and he didnt tap. Tough SOB.

 

I dont think it was sloppy' date=' I think he just should have went for a choke instead of the armbars. He doesnt have to tap to a choke, he will just PTFO. hahahaha I like that. Pass the f*** out!!! =) Coin phrase, I want a nickle everytime it is said.[/quote']

The armbar was very sloppy, instead of extending and using his hips he tried to use his arms to push Hardy's arm sideways over his thigh, which is why Hardy was able to free his hand; really poor technique.

 

He may be used to opponents tapping before the pain of the sub really happens, but that's still no excuse.

 

I really hope he makes Kos cry

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Yeah he always has been a good dirty boxer' date=' but that night he didn't seem like himself Idk it just seemed that the whole fight he was getting beat from what i remember.[/quote']

Guess we should both watch it again....darn...

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I never thought Shogun passed his prime' date=' i just thought that he was coming off a bad injury and needed time to heal up and get used to fighting again. Hes had a recent surgery but now i think you will see Shogun at his peak very soon if not now[/quote']

Shogun isn't even 30 yet.

 

Anyone who thought he was "passed his prime" is kind of a dummy.

 

You are spot on, he is finally healed from extensive knee injuries/surgery and finally back in fighting shape; he looked more impressive against Machida than he did in PRIDE, hopefully he can keep it up.

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I never thought Shogun passed his prime' date=' i just thought that he was coming off a bad injury and needed time to heal up and get used to fighting again. Hes had a recent surgery but now i think you will see Shogun at his peak very soon if not now[/quote']

 

i think u miss understand what im saying im saying that shogun is old school and still effective, in his case evolution is not the problem, if it was he would be getting run over

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The armbar was very sloppy' date=' instead of extending and using his hips he tried to use his arms to push Hardy's arm sideways over his thigh, which is why Hardy was able to free his hand; really poor technique.

 

He may be used to opponents tapping before the pain of the sub really happens, but that's still no excuse.

 

I really hope he makes Kos cry[/quote']

 

It's funny when people with no credentials try to critique a professional.

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I think MMA is defenitly evolving but even more the training is. I cant recal there being a fighter out there 5 years ago who was cutting 30 pounds before each fight and still having cardio for 3 rounds non stop action. For jung fighters it is today much easier to get rally good because they get shaped by experienced coaches how tell them what to eat and how much, see weaknesses and strengths and work on them effectively and get them on the point prepared for fights. Fighters like Crocop for example first learned striking later wrestling and then grappling all in different places.

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I would like someone to explain to me exactly how the sport of MMA has evolved.

 

To my knowledge it's the fighters that have evolved... not the sport. Fighters are always becoming more well rounded. The sport is not any different whatsoever. A straight right hand is still a straight right hand and a RNC looks the same as it did thousands of years ago. The only thing that's different is the fighters know more techniques now and therefore have more tools available to them to finish fights. Sure you're going to get once in a lifetime fighters like Anderson Silva and Fedor but they aren't perfect and nobody else is either.

 

IMO, most of these older fighters (from Pride) are simply running into younger versions of themselves and THAT is why they are losing.

 

With the recent explosion of MMA into mainstream media, you'll start seeing 12 year old Anderson Silvas and 9 year old Jose Aldos. The fighters will continue to get more and more well rounded but it will always come down to who can perform under the lights and put that knowledge to good use when it counts. The mind is the most powerful tool in MMA and that will be the difference in the future.

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