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What can be done to counter Lay & Pray tactics?


SledgehammerSev

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A lot of Lay & Pray threads since UFC 114, So I was thinking what kind of rules can be put in place that would be effective against lay and pray tactics that we are seeing more frequently in the UFC.

 

there is a few that are obvious like the ref can stand people up if they dont work for 20 seconds maybe?

 

Also I was thinking having standard fights being 5 rounds and championship fights maybe 7 but it is asking too much maybe.

 

Any other Ideas?

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lol I mean something they could change in the rules' date=' or maybe in the judging so the guy who is on top doing nothing doesnt win 3 rounds[/quote']

 

Why should the rules have to change because one fighter can't counter what another fighter offers? That's crap. Why don't we just make Anderson Silva fight with one hand and one leg while we're at it, since none of his opponents can counter his striking abilities?

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Why should the rules have to change because one fighter can't counter what another fighter offers? That's crap. Why don't we just make Anderson Silva fight with one hand and one leg while we're at it' date=' since none of his opponents can counter his striking abilities?[/quote']

 

Hell yeah! While were at it lets just hold a spelling bee instead.....blindfolded

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A lot of Lay & Pray threads since UFC 114' date=' So I was thinking what kind of rules can be put in place that would be effective against lay and pray tactics that we are seeing more frequently in the UFC.

 

there is a few that are obvious like the ref can stand people up if they dont work for 20 seconds maybe?

 

Also I was thinking having standard fights being 5 rounds and championship fights maybe 7 but it is asking too much maybe.

 

Any other Ideas?[/quote']

 

Knee's to the head of a grounded opponent and yellow cards for inactivity would clear things up.

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Guest [Deleted User]

Yup not really much you can do but wait for the standup or work out of it but the thing about scoring without inflicting should be reinvented

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Why should the rules have to change because one fighter can't counter what another fighter offers? That's crap. Why don't we just make Anderson Silva fight with one hand and one leg while we're at it' date=' since none of his opponents can counter his striking abilities?[/quote']

 

People watch mma to see a fight not to watch on guy stall the fight and take advantage of the scoring system. I don't even say "wrestling is a part of mma if you dont like it watch boxing" because there are many many wrestlers that finish fights in dominate fashion.

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People watch mma to see a fight not to watch on guy stall the fight and take advantage of the scoring system. I don't even say "wrestling is a part of mma if you dont like it watch boxing" because there are many many wrestlers that finish fights in dominate fashion.

 

Doesn't matter. If you don't want LnP, then the guy on the bottom needs to learn TDD or how to sweep. If he doesn't and the fight ends up being 15 minutes of LnP, then the guy on the bottom caused it by not being able to do anything about the top guy's wrestling. If the guy on the top can do something and win the fight that falls within the rules, good for him. It's up to his opponent's, not the rules, to defeat his style.

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Doesn't matter. If you don't want LnP' date=' then the guy on the bottom needs to learn TDD or how to sweep. If he doesn't and the fight ends up being 15 minutes of LnP, then the guy on the bottom caused it by not being able to do anything about the top guy's wrestling. If the guy on the top can do something and win the fight that falls within the rules, good for him. It's up to his opponent's, not the rules, to defeat his style.[/quote']

 

Lay and pray is a style now? Oh and when your pay and praying you do not need to worry about striking or advancing position, you expend your effort into stopping sweeps and maintaining position.

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Silentson Im with you on this one

 

lol the UFC has champions based on this tactic mainly and its just boring and frowned upon but people speak about them as if they are heroes

 

Boring and frowned upon? By who exactly? A handful of retards on this forum?

 

****in' morons.

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Boring and frowned upon? By who exactly? A handful of retards on this forum?

 

****in' morons.

 

Ohh so dont you just love it when rashad jumps on top of a fighter on the fence or on the ground and just moves around like a retard while doing nothing else?

Awesome fight, got my moneys worth, perfect

 

geez, there has to be a reason to get a takedown instead of waiting for the timer to run out

like in one of the first UFC's they ever held, the guy couldnt beat Gracies Ju Jitsu so he sat on the guy for like 40 minutes when there was no time limits on fights and the fight just ended after that and the rules changed

 

If things keep going like this they need some rules changed aswell I say

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I think if you are in the bottom position' date=' back on the ground...you should be able to throw knees to the head of the guy in the dominant top position.

 

This gives a guy on his back...when someone like GSP takes side control..a good offensive option.

 

Cheers

 

-DR[/quote']

 

Exactly it also allows you to punish someone after you sprawl and stop the take down.

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Ohh so dont you just love it when rashad jumps on top of a fighter on the fence or on the ground and just moves around like a retard while doing nothing else?

Awesome fight' date=' got my moneys worth, perfect

 

geez, there has to be a reason to get a takedown instead of waiting for the timer to run out

like in one of the first UFC's they ever held, the guy couldnt beat Gracies Ju Jitsu so he sat on the guy for like 40 minutes when there was no time limits on fights and the fight just ended after that and the rules changed

 

If things keep going like this they need some rules changed aswell I say[/quote']

 

If you're going to change the rules for one specific style you're going to need more rules to handicap other styles as well. You biased morons just don't get it. It's the fighter's JOB on the BOTTOM to get the **** up. If you get taken down in a street fight no one is going to hold your hand and lift you back up after 20 seconds because you're such a *****.

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If you're going to change the rules for one specific style you're going to need more rules to handicap other styles as well. You biased morons just don't get it. It's the fighter's JOB on the BOTTOM to get the **** up. If you get taken down in a street fight no one is going to hold your hand and lift you back up after 20 seconds because you're such a *****.

 

Your also not going to simply lay on a guy and wait for 5 minutes to go by in a street fight...completely retarded example.

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If you're going to change the rules for one specific style you're going to need more rules to handicap other styles as well. You biased morons just don't get it. It's the fighter's JOB on the BOTTOM to get the **** up. If you get taken down in a street fight no one is going to hold your hand and lift you back up after 20 seconds because you're such a *****.

 

The guy on the bottom always does what he can coz he expects to get knocked out as he is being dominated obviously so its not like he is gona want to be in that position (except for maybe BJJ guys)

but the guy on the top has so many options, to advance, to strike to submit and they dont

what do u call that? waiting for points decision

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Yeah...but in a "streetfight" I have no ****ing problem literally taking your eyes.

 

LITERALLY. I will see how far I can put my fingers in your head. I'll throw how ever many elbows I want to the back of your dome...I'll knee you...etc. WHATEVER I HAVE TO DO TO SURVIVE THAT SITUATION.

 

But we're not talking about "the street" we're talking about sanctioned MMA competition.

 

So the "street" comments have no place here. Because while yes in a street fight..no one is stepping in and putting you on your feet...you also have WAY more options at your disposal if you are on your back.

 

Cheers

 

-DR

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my problem is that the scoring for wrestling and strikes are so uneven its like to the judges a takedown equals rocking an opponent

the point of the fighter is to finish the fight and insure a victory and if you atleast ground and pound you are attempting to win Lesnar, in some cases GSP are prime examples but with Rashad and sonnen to name a few they see a chance to earn a paycheck by taking away the goal they are meant to achieve as being fighters/entertainment

to be entertaining

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Everything that can be done pretty much already has. Anyone who honestly thinks "lay and pray" tactics are becoming worse should go back and watch some UFC fights from about 6-8 years ago. **** you don't even have to go back that far. Watch any of Josh Koschecks early UFC fights, watch most of Randy Coutures old fights, watch ANY of Tito Ortiz' fights. While they may have been doing damage it was boring as **** to watch. There were no submission attempts, few attempts to advance position and the refs would hjust let it go on forever. For the most part refs dont let a guy just lay on top of his opponent any more, especially if you compare American mma to the way it's reffed overseas. It happens sometimes but more often than not people complain because they don't understand what's happening on the ground. I've seen fights where the crowd starts booing when the guys are on the ground even though they're both being very active. A lot of fans still want every fight to be a stand up slugfest, but need to realize it's called "mixed" martial arts for a reason.

 

The only realistic change I see is getting all the refs on the same page. There are times when I'm completely baffled by what some of the refs do (even the ones I think are pretty good). They should pay Herd Dean to teach the rest of these guys how to ref mma properly.

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Guest [Deleted User]
If you're going to change the rules for one specific style you're going to need more rules to handicap other styles as well. You biased morons just don't get it. It's the fighter's JOB on the BOTTOM to get the **** up. If you get taken down in a street fight no one is going to hold your hand and lift you back up after 20 seconds because you're such a *****.

 

Wat? street fighting is completely different retard. and your're a ****** for comparing street fighting to mma. "his job to get the f*ck up" I bet if YOU were the guy on the bottom of GAY-S-P you would be mad yourself because he would scoring for doing nothing

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Ohh so dont you just love it when rashad jumps on top of a fighter on the fence or on the ground and just moves around like a retard while doing nothing else?

Awesome fight' date=' got my moneys worth, perfect

 

geez, there has to be a reason to get a takedown instead of waiting for the timer to run out

like in one of the first UFC's they ever held, the guy couldnt beat Gracies Ju Jitsu so he sat on the guy for like 40 minutes when there was no time limits on fights and the fight just ended after that and the rules changed

 

If things keep going like this they need some rules changed aswell I say[/quote']

 

The fight did not just end, his opponent tapped out. If you watched the fight as you imply by your post you would know that.

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Guest [Deleted User]
my problem is that the scoring for wrestling and strikes are so uneven its like to the judges a takedown equals rocking an opponent

the point of the fighter is to finish the fight and insure a victory and if you atleast ground and pound you are attempting to win Lesnar' date=' in some cases GSP are prime examples but with Rashad and sonnen to name a few they see a chance to earn a paycheck by taking away the goal they are meant to achieve as being fighters/entertainment

to be entertaining[/center']

 

You took the words out of my f*cking mouth.The scoring system is RIDONKULOUS a guy can LnP for two rounds inflicting no damage but in the last few minutes of the third you rock him twice but you dont finish him and he gets decision. thats pretty unfair

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my problem is that the scoring for wrestling and strikes are so uneven its like to the judges a takedown equals rocking an opponent

the point of the fighter is to finish the fight and insure a victory and if you atleast ground and pound you are attempting to win Lesnar' date=' in some cases GSP are prime examples but with Rashad and sonnen to name a few they see a chance to earn a paycheck by taking away the goal they are meant to achieve as being fighters/entertainment

to be entertaining[/center']

 

I Agree with you man, its very unbalanced.

 

What they should do is get some veterans maybe or some proper MMA judges that have done all forms of MMA before to judge

 

Imagine someone like Randy Couture being a judge for example

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The term 'lay n paray' is so overused it's become meaningless. I have seen a few fights where a fighter has just tried to hold top position and nothing more but the term always gets wheeled out by some idiot any time there's a fight that goes to the ground.

 

I agree knees on the ground by both competitors should be allowed and takedowns maybe shouldn't be as dominant in scoring. These things are decided by the Athletic Comission, not the UFC tho so it won't be changing any time soon. The only way to combat wrestling is to learn to defend against it

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A lot of Lay & Pray threads since UFC 114' date=' So I was thinking what kind of rules can be put in place that would be effective against lay and pray tactics that we are seeing more frequently in the UFC.

 

there is a few that are obvious like the ref can stand people up if they dont work for 20 seconds maybe?

 

Also I was thinking having standard fights being 5 rounds and championship fights maybe 7 but it is asking too much maybe.

 

Any other Ideas?[/quote']

 

Have stalling, just like in real wrestling. People stall in real wrestling and they reset. More stand ups if neither is improving position, and take points just like real wrestling for too much stalling. 5 and 7 too much. If its not finished theyre either not fighting, Michael "Lance Armstrong" Bisping or theyre too equal. I do like the idea of a sudden death or 4th round for close 3 round fights.

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Yeah you will be able to pick out when it really happens then.. like Hughes vs Serra.

 

Fighting safe. Sounds like sparring. Jackson,Mr zen master, sure likes his camp to fight safe. It cost Gayshad a title shot. It makes GSP boring, he should have finished 2 one-dimensional fighters if he's so good, and it cost Marquardt as well. Its always a fight.Dont over think it. BJ, Shogun, and Brock don't.

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A lot of Lay & Pray threads since UFC 114' date=' So I was thinking what kind of rules can be put in place that would be effective against lay and pray tactics that we are seeing more frequently in the UFC.

 

there is a few that are obvious like the ref can stand people up if they dont work for 20 seconds maybe?

 

Also I was thinking having standard fights being 5 rounds and championship fights maybe 7 but it is asking too much maybe.

 

Any other Ideas?[/quote']

 

Better Jiu-Jitsu, simple.

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UFC rules are pretty good for wrestling. In Pride people got stood up much faster if not beeing very active and having top position wasent as big of an scoring factor Rodrigo Nogueira vs Ricco Rodriguez and Fedor Emelianenko vs Ricardo Arona both are very good examples for fighters not beein rewarde for lnp taktics in other organisations. So allowing upkicks to the head of an kneed opponent a little different scoring and faster stand up would make fights more intresting. A nother thing that could be done is to pay big finishing bonuses on everey finish. I bet rashad would be much more active if you would pay him

100 000 for fighting a nother 100 000 for winning plus an extra 150 000 for ko or sub finish instead of paying him 200 000 for fighting and 150 000 extra for winning.

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The term 'lay n paray' is so overused it's become meaningless. I have seen a few fights where a fighter has just tried to hold top position and nothing more but the term always gets wheeled out by some idiot any time there's a fight that goes to the ground.

 

I agree knees on the ground by both competitors should be allowed and takedowns maybe shouldn't be as dominant in scoring. These things are decided by the Athletic Comission' date=' not the UFC tho so it won't be changing any time soon. The only way to combat wrestling is to learn to defend against it[/quote']

 

Totally agree about the overuse of the term LnP. Its gone from "holding someone down and doing no damage" to "style based primarily on wrestling". The best example is GSP. The stats thread the other day showed that GSP is the all-time leader in significant strikes landed and yet he's accused daily of being an LnP artist. How can you be the all-time leader in significant strikes landed on one hand and on the other be using a style that inflicts no damage? Just because you don't like his style doesn't mean its LnP.

 

As for knees to grounded opponents, I don't see how this will change anything. It was primarily used in Pride when you sprawled to stop someone's takedown. Yet if fighters were able to sprawl and properly stop takedowns, they wouldn't be getting LnPed, would they? It would only be used by guys who can already stop the takedown.

 

I do like the idea of bringing the yellow card system back, or refs just being more vigilant about stalling tactics. Also, the idea of former MMA fighters becoming judges is a great one. This is really the biggest problem here, judges who don't know what they are watching. As time goes on and more fighters retire, hopefully we'll see this. Once judges are properly scoring what's going on you'll see more fights where guys will win off their back because they were more active and did more damage despite not having superior positioning. This is already starting to happen. I don't know if anyone noticed but former UFC fighter Bill Mahood was a judge for UFC 115.

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Knee's to the head of a grounded opponent and yellow cards for inactivity would clear things up.

 

Gotta agree with this completely. Knees would solve the problem 2 ways.

 

1. They would give the defender another solid option

2. Give the wrestler another weapon to use on the ground instead of laying and praying.

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