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Silva vs. GSP (Unbiased P4P view)


JP24
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I, JP24, will be the guy to come up to the plate and give my most unbiased view on the P4P controversy between Anderson Silva and Georges St-Pierre.

 

When I joined this forum, I was a major GSP hater, but I've come a long way and have some respect for the man now. Now the likes of Thiago Silva are the types I can't stand... ANYWAYS, moving on.

 

P4P standing is judged by a mixture of these following attributes, and whoever has the highest consistent level of all, takes the cake.

 

Win Streak

Opponent Levels

Finishing Fights

Overall Domination

 

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Win Streak:

 

Now, I'll start with Silva. He's on a 14 fight win streak, 8 of which have been title defenses, not including his first title fight itself. Also, 2 of his fights were up a weight class, and Travis Lutter missed weight, so it was not dubbed a title match.

 

GSP is on a 9 fight win streak, 6 of which have been title defenses, not including his initial title shot itself.

 

Anderson Silva's last loss was against Yushin Okami, where he was DQ'ed for illegal upkicks, and has yet to get his revenge fight.

 

GSP's last loss was against Matt Serra, where he tapped to strikes, but he did win his revenge fight against Serra.

 

All in all, I'd say Silva definitely has the upper hand, although GSP's win against Matt Serra was rather big.

 

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Opponent Level:

 

This is always arguable, so I'm gonna keep this as conservative as possible. I can't discredit GSP's victims, nor can I discredit Anderson's.

 

(EDIT: I might add that these are their biggest wins since starting their current win streak.)

 

Anderson Silva's 5 biggest victories were over Forrest Griffin, Dan Henderson, Vitor Belfort, Demian Maia, and Chael Sonnen.

 

The win over Griffin, for me, was a big one because Forrest is a big LHW. A Light Heavyweight! He went up and beat him as if there was nothing to this guy, he udderly destroyed him and took the heart from this big lion.

 

Dan Henderson was also big, despite his loss previously to Rampage Jackson, because he was one of the best to come out of Pride, period. Also, I think we see just how good he is now that he snagged the Strikeforce LHW title.

 

Belfort has been beaten by Couture, Liddell, etc., etc. but he was only losing to LHW's and HW's! Some may call him a "glorified can", but there's no doubt that his striking was crisp and clean, and nobody has knocked Rich Franklin flat out before. Anderson udderly kicked his butt--or face.

 

Maia was a big win, because he was heading into this fight in place of Sonnen at the time (Who he also beat.) I heard many complaints about Maia getting the replacement shot, but I thought it was fair since Sonnen was beaten by Maia... Maia, also, before losing to Marquardt by KO, had an undefeated record of 11-0. He's dominated everyone in his fights where he won, and Silva made him look like a clown... Actually, Anderson looked like the clown, but you get the point.

 

But Chael Sonnen may have been a mixture of his best/worst performances of all time. Many won't give Anderson the benefit of the doubt here, but Anderson said his goal was to submit Sonnen, and he came into the fight with injured ribs. It severely effected his game, and he got wrestled for 4 and 1/2 rounds, but Anderson showed his heart off and pulled out a win (by triangle, lol) in the last couple minutes. Sonnen also is a bigger, better wrestler than Yushin Okami, as he proved in their fight, so winning that was like clearing up his DQ loss to Okami.

 

 

GSP's 5 biggest victories were over Jake Shields, Matt Hughes, Jon Fitch, Matt Serra, and B.J. Penn.

 

Jake Shields, without a doubt, was his biggest victory. This blew the door wide open on his lack of courage in moving up in weight, because up in weight came DOWN to him, and he dominated a MW beast. Jake Shields made Dan Henderson his **, and basically wrestled him to a dominating decision, minus the round one. Jake Shields was also the number 1 threat to GSP's throne, and was thought to be since he was fighting even in Strikeforce.

 

Beating Matt Hughes was a big, huge one. At the time, Hughes was one of the P4P best fighters of all time, and GSP submitted him. This is of course after he lost to Matt Serra, but this is why it's a big win. GSP didn't seem to show much heart in his loss to Serra.

 

Jon Fitch was a massive win. He utterly dominated every fight he was in, and was looking SICK coming up to GSP, and then it looked like Fitch didn't know what to do. He was getting pounded black and blue.

 

Winning against Matt Serra, although Serra is a can, was key to his success... GSP showed how he could come back from devastation and pound the very man who beat him into the dirt.

 

This is the biggest credit I can give to GSP, even though this was done to a LW fighter. Nobody could stop BJ Penn. Matt Hughes beat him by TKO, sure, but that was because he pinned him to the floor, and the infamous "wrong BJ" showed up to that fight. GSP made BJ quit because BJ was getting hammered. That was a massive statement, especially because GSP only won by narrow decision last time.

 

In my most honest opinion, GSP edges Anderson in opponent depth, despite Matt Serra, because in all honesty, he is a can now. His opponents aren't head and shoulders above, but the names, and P4P standings at that time shows that perhaps Anderson hasn't fought THE who's who.

 

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Finishing Fights:

 

The argument could be made "How does finishing fights effect your Pound for Pound status?" I'll answer that. Actually, I'll quote somebody. I've never seen a more intelligent summary of the issue..

 

Finishing a fight shows more dominance than merely outpointing them. It's a lot harder to render a professional fighter unconscious or force them to tap and essentially concede that their goal of becoming the champ is over than it is do minimal damage and and avoid more damage than you dealt out. Neither one is easy. GSP even admits that his goal when he goes into the fight is to finish his opponent. He talks about how hard it is to finish a fighter that is fighting to achieve his dream. He says it before and after his fights. Anderson has the same goal. Only Anderson achieves his goal more often than GSP. GSP is still great and will go down in history as an all-time great but when you are splitting hairs to determine the greatest fighter' date=' finishing does matter.[/quote']

 

That being said...

 

Within Anderson Silva's 14 win streak, 10 of 14 were KO's, TKO's, or Submission to Strikes, 2 of 14 were Submission victories, and 2 of 14 were decisions. (Might I add very lopsided.)

 

(T)KO 000000000----

Sub 00------------

Decision 00------------

 

Within Georges St. Pierre's 9 win streak, 2 of 9 were TKO's, 1 of 9 was an Armbar victory, and 6 of 9 were Unanimous Decisions.

 

(T)KO 00-------

Sub 0------

Decision 000000---

 

....I don't think there's even a doubt who has the upper-hand in this case. Anderson Silva.

 

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Overall Domination

 

Overall Domination is self-explanitory. Who dominates more fights? A whole lot of people can make an argument of this, but getting handled by Chael Sonnen wasn't just the gravestone for Anderson. He still beat him. Even though that was not domination from Anderson, he still hurt Chael a lot more than Chael hurt him. I never use that though, so I won't. That fight was bad for Anderson, and GSP hasn't been losing a fight in a long time.

 

Honestly, I think finishing fights goes hand-and-hand with domination. If you can stop somebody, that shows more domination than mentally playing chess for 25 minutes.

 

Anderson Silva has stopped a lot of guys in grand fashion, minus Chael Sonnen.

 

GSP has utterly dominated EVERYONE in decision working, minus Jake Shields, where according to two judges he only scored 48-47. That's what decisioning does to a fighter. It causes them to lose little bits of respect for losing rounds, when you can just finish the fight and render those rounds invalid.

 

As this is the most controversial issue, I can say Anderson is more dominant with all the finishes, or I can say GSP is more dominant outclassing everybody in his decisions, but as I said, since this is so controversial, I'll split it and call it a draw.

 

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All in all, I say Anderson is the better fighter, with a more consistent mix of Win Streak, Opponent Level, Finishing Fights, and Overall Domination.

 

This thread isn't to argue, it's to discuss. Thanks.

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I agree with this' date=' good thread JP.

Good read as well.

 

Still hate your anti-aldo side though.[/quote']

 

I'm not anti-Aldo?

 

I also think Mentality should be factored in. 'Killer instinct' in a fight clearly exists.

 

This may be true' date=' but we KNOW who has more of that between the two. :rolleyes:

 

I can agree with 99% of this

 

BUT

 

I think the Rich Franklin battles meant much more for Anderson than his win over Belfort.

Not as flashy, but Rich was a huge name, and the champ, and Anderson dominated him twice.

 

This is also true. I selected fights that TUF n00bs would look at, Rich Franklin automatically sucks to most people, but you're right. Anybody who knows MMA knows this.

 

Wow very nice JP24. I agree though.

 

Thank you.

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Rich Franklin was tearing people down left and right. He is VASTLY underrated and it is very unfortunate because the dude is/was a beast. I think it's funny that Rich gets tooled by Anderson and that automatically makes everyone think that he sucks...which is really not the case.

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Rich Franklin was tearing people down left and right. He is VASTLY underrated and it is very unfortunate because the dude is/was a beast. I think it's funny that Rich gets tooled by Anderson and that automatically makes everyone think that he sucks...which is really not the case.

 

Absolutely right, you are! I consider his loss to Forrest an upset, AND, I also think it went the way it did because he was totally scared to strike with Forrest....

 

 

BTW, Franklin is gonna own some Nog here soon. :D

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Even as a GSP fan I'd agree with the jp24. In time GSP might surpass him as he is still younger than when Silva joined the ufc.

 

It's possible, also, whoever loses, naturally does not have the right to be called P4P #1 at all anymore.

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Well' date=' it is a good read, but I still don't like the idea of P4P in MMA, it's just too tough to argue.[/quote']

 

It is. But there is one definite truth. #1 and 2 is neck and neck between Silva and St. Pierre. Aldo is #3-5 Jones is CERTAINLY not a top 5 P4P ranked fighter.

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Nice work JP. Good to see an objective analysis.

 

Well, I see a lot of people complaining about my post quality going down. Figured it was time for something good, and I thought of this. Thank you.

 

Yeah, I'm getting better, just having a hard time in life now, but you gotta get over crap at some point, right?

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Well' date=' I see a lot of people complaining about my post quality going down. Figured it was time for something good, and I thought of this. Thank you.

 

Yeah, I'm getting better, just having a hard time in life now, but you gotta get over crap at some point, right?[/quote']

 

No doubt. I was legitimately surprised when I read it, then looked at who wrote it, to be honest. Pleasant surprise, keep it up, and I hope your personal problems are resolved. It sucks when life craps on you for no particular reason, but it happens. :(

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No doubt. I was legitimately surprised when I read it' date=' then looked at who wrote it, to be honest. Pleasant surprise, keep it up, and I hope your personal problems are resolved. It sucks when life craps on you for no particular reason, but it happens. :([/quote']

 

Yeah, bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people too. Life goes on, and I gotta roll with the punches.

 

EDIT: In this case, they're all punches to the nuts. LOL

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Good Job now can WhoAmI shut up.............................

 

Probably not though. XD

 

It wasn't directed at him, but I did kinda get a couple of ideas from him. I guess it was an indirected response to him.

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Well' date=' I see a lot of people complaining about my post quality going down. Figured it was time for something good, and I thought of this. Thank you.

 

Yeah, I'm getting better, just having a hard time in life now, but you gotta get over crap at some point, right?[/quote']

 

Just stay positive and don't let negativity in to your life. It may seem hard but every situation can be spun into a positive. I'm telling you from experience that it works.

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Just stay positive and don't let negativity in to your life. It may seem hard but every situation can be spun into a positive. I'm telling you from experience that it works.

 

I do the same thing. I try to never let anything bring me down. I am not a spiritual person, so I don't have "God" to fall back on if something goes wrong.

I assume you have had to deal with depression at some point in your life?

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I do the same thing. I try to never let anything bring me down. I am not a spiritual person' date=' so I don't have "God" to fall back on if something goes wrong.

I assume you have had to deal with depression at some point in your life?[/quote']

 

Life happens right? My dad dying 7 yrs ago and breaking it off my fianc?e who I was with for 6 yrs around the same time forced me to change my perspective or depression was definitely a possibility. I think thinking in a positive way has aloud my life to flourish. I'm not religious at all but I believe in energy and the law of attraction.

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Just stay positive and don't let negativity in to your life. It may seem hard but every situation can be spun into a positive. I'm telling you from experience that it works.

 

Yeah, I'm in the transitioning stage right now. I am being positive. Thanks for the support. I mean I get more support from total strangers than I do from 99% of the people I actually know. Haha. Kinda dumb how that is.

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Yeah' date=' I'm in the transitioning stage right now. I am being positive. Thanks for the support. I mean I get more support from total strangers than I do from 99% of the people I actually know. Haha. :)[/quote']

 

People you know have the risk of sounding gay. I can say I would blow you, and not hear anything about it. That's beauty of the interwebz.

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People you know have the risk of sounding gay. I can say I would blow you' date=' and not hear anything about it. That's beauty of the interwebz.[/quote']

 

Sick. I'm gonna try. JK

 

No, I live in a place where nobody gives a crap for anyone. I have like one good friend, and a fianc?. That's it.

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I think GSP would beat Silva.

 

As for P4P' date=' I can't really say ATM.[/quote']

 

I do not. One little punch to the face of GSP from Jake Shields, and he was using it as his crutch for not doing as well... Anderson would pound him.

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I think it's the best analysis I have seen' date=' but the conclusion is puzzling to me. I think you tried to play politics on that one LOL.[/quote']

 

How is it puzzling, please clarify. I can try to fix it.

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Well your conclusion is that it's a tie between the two' date=' but looking at your facts it's pretty obvious that Silva is the obvious choice for P4P, and I am not biased either way I don't care for either guy really.[/quote']

 

No, I thought I said all in all that Silva is the best. I gave them a draw in overall domination, but that's it.

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Very very good post, but I disagree with a couple of your points.

 

The first point I disagree with is your assessment of who Silva and GSP have beaten. You say beating Shields and Penn (among others) were GSPs biggest wins.

 

Here's my problem with the Shields fight: He fought Shields for 25 minutes in a strictly stand-up fight, and was absolutely terrified to go to the ground with him (so much so that he refused to go for the finish after his head-kick landed).

 

If you fight Shields in a boxing match for 25 minutes, and you're supposed to be one of the best in the world, you better finish the man, or at least make him look absolutely silly. GSP did neither of these things, and Shields even wound up getting the better of him in the stand-up at some points.

 

Now, I you might say "Well, GSP didn't let Shields take him down". Yes, that may be impressive, except for the fact that he only tried to take GSP down 3 or so times, and never even attempted to in the later rounds. Twice Shields had GSP balancing on one leg, and instead of putting in all of his effort to try and bring him down, Shields just let go and went back to boxing.

 

This fight, in my opinion, was GSP's LEAST important and definitely his LEAST impressive.

 

Now, to the Penn fight, I only have two things to say:

 

1) Penn is massively undersized for a WW, especially during GSP/Penn 2.

2) Yes, I know this has been brought up time and time again, but GSP was caught GREASING in this fight. Not only that, but multiple fighters have said GSP had greased prior to the Penn fight. Not only does "Grease-Gate" stain the outcome of the GSP/Penn 2 fight, but it stains GSP's entire career leading up to that point.

 

For these reasons, and the fact that Silva has always fought guys the same size or bigger than himself, AND the fact that Silva moved up in weight to fight a previous LHW champion and made him literally run out of the cage crying, I give Silva the edge in this category.

 

The second thing I have a problem with is how you said GSP completely outclasses and dominates everyone he fights.

 

Let's be honest, ever since GSP started this "dominating" run, he's only fought undersized or one-dimensional opponents. He's used his admittedly terrific takedowns and TDD to keep the fight where he wants it, so that he doesn't have to worry about his opponent's strength.

 

But when you keep a fight standing against Shields for 25 minutes, and a fight on the ground against Hardy for 25 minutes, and you fail to finish or humiliate your opponent, you prove one thing:

 

1) Your stand-up and grappling are both mediocre at best.

 

GSP uses his takedowns and TDD to play to his opponents' weaknesses so that he can win on points.

 

Silva uses his striking and grappling to pick his opponents apart and to finish them.

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